Renewable Revolution

JD said:

The questions you ask basically are ones of technical feasibility.

That is not the most important issue.

I never said it was. You just jumped up and made that incorrect assumption.

If you are doing sustainable animal husbandry, every calorie that goes into milk production is a calorie that can not be expended on other requirements.

  This is mechanistic reductionist thinking on your part.   Knarf addressed that issue effectively by weaning the kids with a suitable, nutritional substitute that does NOT hurt the kid OR the female goat. The lactating period is a little longer but not enough for you to make such and "unsustainable" big deal out of it.

So it is really more of a budgetary question, how much can you extract from the system before it falls apart?

More mechanistic reductionist thinking. Goat milking is DESIGNED to perpetuate the viability of the goat milking human and the goats as well, not to "EXPLOIT THE SYSTEM" to the point of collapse! That is predatory capitalist thinking. I thought you had been weaned of that garbage by this forum. MKing sees EVERYTHING that way. I was convinced it was different for you. 

If you are using artificial stimulants, the answer is not much unless you use artificial supports, like antibiotics.

Oxytocin is a hormone. The fact that we can make it does not change that. We make insulin. Is that "artificial" too?

 

Dairy animals go dry for a reason.  They need a period to rest and recover.  Breeds that have been selected for hyper levels of production tend to have very short lifespans because they literally wear themselves out.

With all due respect, JD, this is the kind of comment, that you make from time to time, that really pisses me off. You know me. You know I have a general idea of what mammary glands are, when they are used, why they are used and how they can me misused. If you are talking to a **** ignoramus, this is the kind of comment that is in order. I thought you had a higher opinion of my data base.


You and I have had communication difficulties since I met you. FWIW, I will try to explain my position to you on this animal husbandry thing in general and milking them in particular.

I hear ya. I am as concerned about sustainability and proper, humane, husbandry as you. I think what Knarf is doing qualifies as sustainable, don't you?

The cows, on the other hand, have their male calves taken from them for VEAL for the rich at about $28.00 a pound!  :emthdown:  The agony those cows go through and the grieving has been documented.   

That is one hell of a difference!

As to your energy outlook on sustainability, I think it is a bit cold blooded.  :emthdown: Animal husbandry is, admittedly, an EVIL practice in this country. However, unlike many permaculturists out there, I DO NOT agree with all their calorie calculations about this and that not being sustainable. That is Baloney.

The problem is the WAY the animals are treated, how they are fed, and WHAT IS DONE with their urine and feces. If all this was done CORRECTLY, we would have MORE and healthier ORGANIC crops with MORE domestic food animals, PERIOD. And NO antibiotics would be needed either!

I've read the numbers, JD. I DO NOT buy them. HUGE herds of ruminants roamed this land before Homo SAPS were killing them off. THEY are NECESSARY for a viable biosphere. All the Baloney about how farm animals are "unsustainable" is just that!

What is UNSUSTAINABLE is the "PROFIT" from jamming animals into factory style environments that breed disease so some big meat corporation can buy off the government inspectors.

The MOMENT those animals are treated properly, the LAND where they graze, urine and defecate begins to recover. But the profits of the ranchers goes down in proportion to the humane and sustainable treatment of the animals.

As to Oxytocin being an "artificial" substance that violated permaculture principles, you are wrong. Yes, we can make oxytocin in the lab, but both animals and humans MAKE IT NATURALLY.

I know all about mastitis and other deleterious effects of forcing mammary glands to pump milk too often. Perhaps it would be better to eliminate milk altogether.

But THAT is no guarantee that the animals will have better and/or LONGER lives, as you surmise. In fact, more cows will head for the slaughter EARLIER. I don't consider that progress, do you? 

As long as we DO get milk from animals, If we can get them to lactate, like HUMAN FEMALES DO, from exposure to oxytocin, that beats the HELL out of inseminating them, getting them pregnant, and then ripping their calves away from them for veal cutlets!

Here's an article on 11 effects of Oxytocin does in humans. I think several Diners could use a heavy dose of it now and then. 

Oxytocin crystallizes emotional memories
A November study in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences supported researchers' theory that oxytocin would amplify men's early memories of their mothers. In a group of 31 men, those who inhaled a synthetic version of the hormone found the hormone intensified fond memories of their mothers if their relationships had been positive. Those whose ties with their mom's had frayed downgraded their opinions after inhaling oxytocin, the study showed.

Oxytocin solidifies relationships
Comparing urine levels of oxytocin and a related hormone called vasopressin in biological and adoptive children who lived in Russian and Romanian orphanages, researchers found that oxytocin rose in biological children after having contact with their mothers. The study, published in 2005 in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, showed that oxytocin levels remained static in the adoptive children in the same situation, suggesting a physiological basis for why some adoptive children have difficulty forming secure relationships.

Oxytocin facilitates childbirth and breastfeeding
In its best understood role, oxytocin is released in large amounts during labor, intensifying the uterine contractions that open the cervix and allow the baby to pass through the birth canal. Physicians have been using synthetic oxytocin, also known by its brand name Pitocin, to induce or augment labor since the early 1900s. After birth, the hormone continues to stimulate uterine contractions that discourage hemorrhaging, and more is released when the nipples are stimulated during suckling, promoting the letdown of milk into the nipples.

http://www.livescience.com/35219-11-effects-of-oxytocin.html
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