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Author Topic: Blasts from the 2012 to 2013 past when there was more HOPE 🌟  (Read 2340 times)

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AGelbert

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The above is known as a Procrustean bed in critical thinking and logic. The use of this "bed" is rooted in Greek mythology.

The contemporary use of this "my way or the high way" type of "logic" was recently practiced by TWO people at the TAE in response to some "feather ruffling" that I engaged in (see this thread from beginning to end for details). A THIRD person from TAE comes here to use the same type of flawed logic and sophistic debating skills to flip arguments on their head in order to "WIN" the argument and defend his fellow Procrustean Bed Believers at TAE.

I have observed many responses from fellow Doomsteaders to this technique and I am happy to report nobody here is taken in by the Procrustean Bed Con of attempting to frame the argument boundaries for a guaranteed win. IOW, bullshit goes over like a lead ballon around here. :emthup:

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A Procrustean bed is an arbitrary standard to which exact conformity is forced.

But most entertaining is when someone of a scientific and technical mindset engages in these Procrustean Bed fun and games to get "acceptable" EROI numbers for fossil fuels.


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A Procrustean solution is the undesirable practice of tailoring data to fit its container or some other preconceived structure.

In a Procrustean solution in statistics, instead of finding the best fit line to a scatter plot of data, one first chooses the line one wants, then selects only the data that fits it, disregarding data that does not, so to "prove" some idea. It is a form of rhetorical deception made to forward one set of interests at the expense of others. The unique goal of the Procrustean solution is not win-win, but rather that Procrustes wins and the other loses. In this case, the defeat of the opponent justifies the deceptive means.

The above procedure is how fossil fuels are made to look better than renewables.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procrustes

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The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.
Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart. Ps. 97:11

AGelbert

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RE,
I'm having a hell of a time getting anything but 3 and 4 year old numbers for  renewable cost benefit analysis (if I can get them at all!) Oh but there is an absolute avalanche of pro fossil fuel and nuclear EROI number bullshit out there that The Automatic Enema site can use to falsely claim that an incrementalist attitude must be taken and a gradual "mother may I?" approach is warranted to phasing out fossil fuels because that's the way the "world works" and renewables are "uncompetitive", don'tcha know? That's real fu cking convenient while the "poison the planet for fun and profit" lobbies from these f u c k s are doing everything they can to sabotage any hope of decent government backing for the renewables AND simultaneously pushing legislation to guarantee continued fossil fuel subsidies and enormous sums for new nuclear reactors.

These are great points, seldom or never mentioned by the Peak Oil and doom crowd. The situation as it is unfolding and the (extremely screwed-up) world as we find it is assumed to be the only situation/world that could exist.  Hence, gigantic subsidies (often hidden or at least not readily apparent) for existing corporate interests are ignored and effectively considered inevitable, as though they were the outworking of immutable physical laws. Meanwhile, viable alternatives coming from non-mainstream or non-established sources -- completely starved for said subsidies -- are dismissed (as you say) as "uncompetitive" or "impractical". Amazing that a supposedly intelligent and astute crowd can eat up the corporate bullshit/propaganda as readily as they do. And I speak as one who was, for a period of years, among them. Peak oil (and "inevitable" collapse resulting therefrom) was, for me, a compelling matter for several years, starting in about 1999 -- shortly after discovering Hanson's dieoff.com. It took me about 5 years to begin seeing the cracks in it, and another 3-4 years before they became really serious.  It has only been the last couple or three years that I began seeing that the whole thing is a big fraud, based almost entirely on corporate/capitalist propaganda, and that our problems have little (though admittedly not nothing) to do with resource limits.  In retrospect I am ashamed that it took me so long. I should have made the round trip in under 3 years. Oh well. Just dumb I guess.    ;)

Regarding EROI:  I recall for many years that Jay Hanson derided solar PV technology, scoffing at the possibility of it ever amounting to anything. He turned it into a joke, like (paraphrased): "Only an IDIOT could imagine that modern industrial civilization could be run on solar panels".  He also claimed for years that solar panels were net energy losers, basing that on data from the late 80s or early 90s, I believe. Well, surely it WAS true for some time that PVs were net energy losers; how could it be otherwise, in the early phases?  But those days are loooonnnng gone, and it was foreseeable for many years before the crossover point that things were heading in that direction and would certainly get there. I wonder what Jay is saying these days about China's prodigious PV production, at fantastically low prices, and offering power at near grid parity.  No doubt the codger has quietly dropped that point and moved on to other things.  Oh yes, you can't store PV generated power. Right. SO WHAT?  We have plenty of other ways to generate power at night, and we have many decades of work yet to do to transition to PV (to the extent that PV is useful) and other renewables. The whole "argument" against solar PV has simply disintegrated and been rendered totally irrelevant, by reality. And so it is on other fronts.

Speaking of China: they are doing the big, forward-looking infrastructural things that we used to do, and should now be doing. They subsidize key industries and undertake projects of breathtaking ambition and scope. For example, the Great Green Wall (biggest environmental restoration project of all time, spanning a CENTURY),  and their high-speed-rail land bridge across Eurasia, probably to be completed over several decades, perhaps a half-century:
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article34366.html
China's Land Bridge to Turkey Creates New Eurasian
Geopolitical Potentials   Apr 28, 2012  -  F William Engdahl

Meanwhile, the West has been reduced to obsession with ever-smaller time slices (and worldly efforts/initiatives to match), the ultimate expression of which seems to be high-speed program trading, wherein trades are executed by computer in tiny fractions of a second, and the physical distance of the executing computer from the exchange actually makes for a significant difference in trading results (because of the extra milli-seconds it takes for the impulses to travel over the wires)!  And all of this merely for the purpose of further enriching some already-filthy-rich bastards who have never in their lives actually created anything of value.  What a stark contrast with the grand visions being developed in the East! How sadly emblematic of our spiritual sickness!

Well, I can say that the doomers are at least half-right. Something IS collapsing, and further collapse is (now) inevitable. But it is not industrial civilization. It is the West in general, and America in particular.  And, because Americans are strongly inclined to think that America is everything, the collapse of America is perceived as a collapse of everything, or as the collapse of industrial civilization, or as the End of the World -- TEOTWAWKI.  (And yes, I was guilty of this very thing myself -- until I woke up.)

Invaluable commentary and analysis on America’s failure and collapse, by Morris Berman:
http://morrisberman.blogspot.com
http://www.amazon.com/Twilight-American-Culture-Morris-Berman/dp/039332169X
http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Ages-America-Final-Empire/dp/0393329771
http://www.amazon.com/Why-America-Failed-Imperial-Decline/dp/1118061810
http://www.amazon.com/A-Question-Values-Morris-Berman/dp/1453722882

By the way, did you know that the true cost of gasoline, when all externalities are figured in, has been estimated to be as high as $15/gallon?  And that was 10 years ago!  It is probably much higher, now.
Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart. Ps. 97:11

AGelbert

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I said yesterday and it was diplomatically ignored, that Ashvin comes to the diner only to p i s s his own p i s s, not to comment with that great intelligence RE says that he has, not to comment, argue with or commend any of the great and meaningful, informative articles that have been posted. I suggest that it is because he is not only arrogant and supercillious,but too insecure and basically afraid to step down from his high horse. Or MAYBE, he just doesn't eat where he CRAPS.

While I don't hold the level of disdain for Ilargi and Stoneleigh you guys have, I do find it astounding that they are so dismissive of Agelbert's work. I think they don't have the courage to question the status quo bullshit about "that's the way the world is, so...", fearing they will be ostracized not by their readers, but by their peers in the chattering class, as being unrealistic. The f u c k e d up thing about it is, they know the f u c k i n g thing is collapsing. Why not condemn the whole fossil fuel paradigm? Chicken s h i t s. All that tough talk from Ilargi. How many times is he going to say the same damn thing about the economy, that it's f u c k e d up? Duh.
Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart. Ps. 97:11

AGelbert

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Tao Jonesing,
The links I used to reference quotes got stuck into the next paragraph beginning throughout the article so it can be a bit confusing. On subsequent articles I will use the numerical referencing convention used in books and post all the links at the article bottom as an end of the article reference area to make things clearer.

As to energy, as it relates to economics being a fictitious commodity, although I don't have your in depth knowledge of economics, I firmly believe that a corrupt hierarchy that gained enormous power during the gilded age by using the force multiplier of the industrial revolution to garner their wealth became so arrogant that they began to view absolutely all human activity as a commodity along with natural resources as well.

This morally repugnant rationalization enabled them to justify their despotic practices because, with this "commiditization of everything" meme, they had divorced themselves from the responsibility for good stewardship of the earth and humane behavior to employees. Noblesse oblige, whatever small amount remained when the industrial revolution began, died with the gilded age in a sea of greed.

The power of the 1% has enabled them to defend the claim that energy, land and labor are not fictitious commodities even though I agree with you that they are.

The 1% are controlling the narrative and they continue to shove it down our throat. Bernanke and his banking friends couldn't run a lemonade stand successfully with their brand of economics policies but there they are claiming to be experts. It's Orwellian.

Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart. Ps. 97:11

AGelbert

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RE,
We are definitely into phase 1 (ignore) from TAE. It looks like they are finding the heat in the "kitchen" a bit on the high side. Karpatok's observation that stoneleigh was argumentative on some issue unrelated to this tells me a lot of stoneleigh's buttons are stuck in the "pushed" position. She HAS read the article and she HAS contacted some pals at The Oil Drum; count on it.

Eventually somebody from The Oil Scum is going to drop by to start phase 2 (ridicule) with some show of pedantry through enthalpy (Heat Value) jargon IF this article goes viral. If not, they'll leave it at phase 1 and keep trying to block you at TAE with history deletion worthy of Winston's job in Orwell's 1984. Either way, I'm ready for them. 8)

One good thing about all this is that the rubber has met the road in exposing rank hypocrisy from scripture quoting, self styled paragons of virtue because they just can't shake their abject submission to the status quo. Their new silence spares us having to read the dissonant comments of one that doesn't WALK the TALK.

Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart. Ps. 97:11

AGelbert

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As to energy, as it relates to economics being a fictitious commodity, although I don't have your in depth knowledge of economics, I firmly believe that a corrupt hierarchy that gained enormous power during the gilded age by using the force multiplier of the industrial revolution to garner their wealth became so arrogant that they began to view absolutely all human activity as a commodity along with natural resources as well. This morally repugnant rationalization enabled them to justify their despotic practices because, with this "commiditization of everything" meme, they had divorced themselves from the responsibility for good stewardship of the earth and humane behavior to employees. Noblesse oblige, whatever small amount remained when the industrial revolution began, died with the gilded age in a sea of greed. The power of the 1% has enabled them to defend the claim that energy, land and labor are not fictitious commodities even though I agree with you that they are. The 1% are controlling the narrative and they continue to shove it down our throat. Bernanke and his banking friends couldn't run a lemonade stand successfully with their brand of economics policies but there they are, claiming to be experts. It's Orwellian.

First, a depth of knowledge of economics is the last thing you want.  It's all a lie, the dogma of the rationalist cult, i.e., the means for RE to get his Ashvin on (although RE is too rational to take the bait).  ;D  Worst of all, economic theory is utterly and thoroughly irrelevant: finance is all that truly matters.  Usury is the one ring that rules them all.

Second, the corrupt hierarchy held sway long before the Gilded Age, they just were just held in check by a truce called the U.S. Constitution.  See this abolitionist screed for a very early analysis along these lines:

http://books.google.com/books?id=tN99jYDpUi0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=constitution+pro-slavery&source=bl&ots=bFTcfaobRD&sig=CJ0o_p3luw_Mr8kG8uNbGM_ZYjA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qZoHUNHGOqqg2gX22InHBA&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=constitution%20pro-slavery&f=false

Also, see Michael Perelman's The Invention of Capitalism: Classical Political Economy and the Secret History of Primitive Accumulation.

Third, I just said that knowledge of economics is toxic, but knowledge of the history of economics is quite valuable.   To my mind, the Gilded Ages was a truly American phenomenon driven by the destruction of the dualistic economy of the United States as a result of the Civil War.  The American South was essentially a physiocratic economy (a French doctrine that all wealth is derived from the ownership of property; Jefferson was clearly a Physiocrat), while the American North had a mercantile economy (much more English and finance-focused; Hamilton was a strong proponent).  These two approaches to political economy are naturally incompatible, and when the North smashed the South, it crreated a vacuum into which finance stepped.

Finally, the size of the elite that truly guide the narrative is a tiny fraction of the 1%.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't worry about the 99% of the 1% have been duped just as much as the 99%.

It's all a lie, the dogma of the rationalist cult, i.e., the means for RE to get his Ashvin on (although RE is too rational to take the bait).

Good one TJ. It might make a Quote of the Month.   

RE
Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart. Ps. 97:11

AGelbert

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Tao Jonesing,

I'll check that abolitionist out. Certainly, human nature is what it is, BUT, the industrial revolution allowed an oligarch to garner wealth for 10,000 while he had been previously limited to lording it over a handful of serfs and slaves while sparring with the other small time tyrants throughout history. As to the North and the South, I have read that the different areas in the UK that they came from predicated their behavior patterns before they stepped off the boat (four distinct areas I believe).

One of the things about the US constitution is that it was a rhetorical masterpiece because it applied to a VERY tiny group of men excluding, in practice, everyone but landed white men while claiming "all men were created equal". It was breathtaking in its hypocrisy. A free black who built his own clock out of hardwood parts, became an astronomer and computed the ephemeris used by mariners in the day wrote to Jefferson demanding that Jefferson stop insisting that blacks were mentally inferior to whites and offerred to debate him and have a mathematical contest. Jefferson flat refused to even acknowledge him. Jefferson was a great writer but a ruthless opportunist, as were all the founding fathers. The constitution has never, even to this day, been applied across the land and I am fully aware of the Calvinist doctrine in the US after the civil war that maintained that "The people must be kept poor so they will remain obedient". IF the industrial revolution had improved the lives of everyone across the board as was promised, we would have a different world. But, no the people with access to capital deliberately made life worse for the poor and used divide and conquer tactics to create Jim Crow strife to sucker the poor whites into not looking at who was REALLY impoverishing them. All this is as old as human nature. For that reason I tend to look with a jaundiced eye at any claim to greatness or foresight by the founding fathers.

I continue to believe the force multiplier of the industrial revolution increased the power of these oligarchs and decreased, in an equal proportion, the small amount of democracy we had. I know how England and Europe operated in those days. They wanted everything not made in England (machinery and crafted goods) to have zero competition and everything coming from the colonies to be agrarian goods (commodities). The North and South had a different spin on how to make a buck but they were both equally complicit (at the elite level) in fostering tyranny for profit.

I was generalizing when I said the "1%". I realize the main decision makers involve a smaller percentage and the 99% suffer from a serious infusion of fecal coliforms in their glial cells resulting in their amygdalas colonizing their prefrontal cortex. IOW they are being continuously brainwashed with bullshit so their base urges are amplified and their critical thinking skills destroyed. But nevertheless, I see more virtue and hope in the 99% than the souless reptiles in the catbird seat.


Certainly, human nature is what it is, BUT, the industrial revolution allowed an oligarch to garner wealth for 10,000 while he had been previously limited to lording it over a handful of serfs and slaves while sparring with the other small time tyrants throughout history.

But what did the oligarchs do to create the conditions for the industrial revolution?  The conditions did not arise naturally but were created by state intervention.  Here's a link to an article that discusses Perelman's book, cited above:

http://exiledonline.com/recovered-economic-history-everyone-but-an-idiot-knows-that-the-lower-classes-must-be-kept-poor-or-they-will-never-be-industrious/

Quote
I continue to believe the force multiplier of the industrial revolution increased the power of these oligarchs and decreased, in an equal proportion, the small amount of democracy we had. I know how England and Europe operated in those days.

I don't disagree.
Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart. Ps. 97:11

AGelbert

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One good thing about all this is that the rubber has met the road in exposing rank hypocrisy from scripture quoting, self styled paragons of virtue because they just can't shake their abject submission to the status quo. Their new silence spares us having to read the dissonant comments of one that doesn't WALK the TALK.

First of all, I'm the only one who will quote scripture from time to time... because it's hard to find many people who will get angry when confronted with such wisdom, even if they are the most spiritually devoid materialists.

You sir, are mistaken. You are NOT the only person who will quote scripture here. Set down your sanctimony long enough to acquaint yourself with the evidence.


RE,

I don't want to get into defending I or S here, or explain why no one is responding to agelbert's behemoth of an article, because it's really like arguing with a bunch of bitter old crabby women who don't want to hear what you're saying. For all the hate and disdain of TAE here, it's really surprising that every popular thread ends up being about Stoneleigh, Ilargi, me and TAE (not really surprising). You guys accuse it of being irrelevant, yet feel the need to attack it every chance you get. What's the deal with that? Jealousy perhaps? Or perhaps just bitter anger at the site that really helped get you going here, but then predictably decided to disassociate... either way, I don't care anymore.

I feel like I get dumber, more frustrated and more bitter every time I try to delve into a discussion about anything here... so I'm going to stop for the most part, unless it's something I find to be very important, like misrepresentations of theological/spiritual issues, or someone responding reasonably and rationally to a comment I've made. This bitter environment just isn't conducive towards many meaningful discussions, even though I'll gladly admit that the Admins here pose very interesting thoughts and ideas in their articles. The only really productive discussion I've had here, though, was with Ka, and I actually learned a few things about my own Faith from him. Yes, that's right - I'm still learning, but I'm not sure that's true about a lot of other people here.

As someone who has helped make the environment more bitter with your withering criticism of others who do not share your fundamentalist cant, I am gobsmacked by your temerity. Just stunning.

"How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." Luke 6:42

"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" ~Matthew 7:16

Oh-- perhaps you will explain to the rest of us Diners why TAE chose to take down the Orkin Man article and comment stream.


 
Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart. Ps. 97:11

AGelbert

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Tao Jonesing,
I think you and I are generally on the same wave length. 


I checked out the book you linked to. Of course the Constitution is a pro-slavery document! Much has been written about the Revolution being, at it's core, an attempt to immunize the colonies from the "disturbing" (to Jefferson and friends) move in England at the time to outlaw slavery. But the industrial revolution and how the elite parasitic modus operandi called "capitalism" benefited massively from mass production is the main historical influence that led to our polluted world and p i s s a  nt wage structure of today. The mass production factories created a new type of slavery without the pejorative connotation of being race linked but it was still slavery.

When enslaving African Americans was no longer cost effective due to farm machinery, new ways to enslave them and the poor whites as well as any other ethnic poor had to be invented. After all, the elite did not like one bit the idea that the increased efficiency of a laborer could provide that laborer with more free time and a better life. The 1% had conniption fits thinking about all those people out there having the time to sit, think and figure out how TBTB were gaming them. No, the elite developed a plan to "keep em' busy".

The guilt trip sermons from pulpits all over America went out after the Civil War to demonize leisure and glorify "nose to the grindstone" work as being "God's Will". BULLSHIT! The elite's "work ethic" includes years of "sabbaticals", "learning experiences", "naval gazing" and "introspection" that translate to long stretches of time doing absolutely nothing productive.

I think that's wonderful and should be available to all of us as a means to a healthier and happier mindset. That's why the elite do it. For them to then turn around and unleash their propaganda water carrying lackeys solemnly mouthing the "don't be lazy, work your fingers to the bone for us" bullshit on the populace is the epitome of duplicity.

It is said the word "saboteur" derives from the Netherlands in the 15th century when workers would throw their sabots (wooden shoes) into the wooden gears of the textile looms to break the cogs, fearing the automated machines would render the human workers obsolete.

Notice how the word "saboteur" has a negative connotation. This shows who controls the historical narrative. I believe the Dutch laborers weren't just concerned about obsolescence; they were concerned about controlling how much they got paid for their labor. Mass production was the beginning of a massive concentration of wealth by greedy machinery owners that refused to pay equitable wages.

This is what "Capitalism" is really all about. It is sold as free market this and that but, in practice, it is nothing but elite parasitism. When the English gentry wanted to corral the peasants into working in the factories, as well as use more of their land to grow sheep for fleece free from peasant interference, they came up with a pack of thinly justified herding mechanisms (Enclosure Laws)  that stripped the peasants of their ability to live off the land. The peasants were not buying the con that working in a factory was a better deal than living off the land. They had to be forced. 

They knew damned good and well that the factory owners were not going to pay decent wages or provide adequate working conditions. Today, all this disguised tyranny called capitalism is festooned with gobbledygook tems like competitive advantage and arbitrage along with a plethora of terms from the masturbatory imaginations of bored economists but it continues to be about elite parasitism. In the financial area the vampire proboscis is usury but that is not the whole story by a long shot. Patent law is another huge part of RHIP that was NOT put there to protect inventors UNLESS those inventors were from the upper class. The bottom line is the control of the populace for the power, profit and pleasure of the TPBT. 
Enclosure

In English social and economic history, enclosure or inclosure[1] is the process which ends traditional rights such as mowing meadows for hay, or grazing livestock on common land formerly held in the open field system. Once enclosed, these uses of the land become restricted to the owner, and it ceases to be common land. In England and Wales the term is also used for the process that ended the ancient system of arable farming in open fields. Under enclosure, such land is fenced (enclosed) and deeded or entitled to one or more owners. The process of enclosure began to be a widespread feature of the English agricultural landscape during the 16th century. By the 19th century, unenclosed commons had become largely restricted to rough pasture in mountainous areas and to relatively small parts of the lowlands.

The process of enclosure has sometimes been accompanied by force, resistance, and bloodshed, and remains among the most controversial areas of agricultural and economic history in England. Marxist and neo-Marxist historians argue that rich landowners used their control of state processes to appropriate public land for their private benefit. This created a landless working class that provided the labour required in the new industries developing in the north of England. For example: "In agriculture the years between 1760 and 1820 are the years of wholesale enclosure in which, in village after village, common rights are lost".[2] "Enclosure (when all the sophistications are allowed for) was a plain enough case of class robbery".[3][4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure

The following video tells the real story of capitalism's birth and growth through the power the elite obtained in the industrial revolution, how the poor were demonzed as being "lazy" for attempting to avoid the horrors of factory work by staying on, and living off, the land. They had to be forced, along with their children, to do so.



The only proper economic system that humans should engage in is the egalitarian socialism that the early Christians engaged in as shown in the Book of Acts in the New Testament (Somehow, I don't think Ashvin would go for this  ;D ). The Apostles were the top dogs but they received no special privileges and had to work as hard as anybody else. The elite despise egalitarianism so they invented all sorts of euphemisms for tyranny like capitalism, as well as 20th century Soviet Communism. It's six of one and half a dozen of the other. They all end up with a few reptiles in the catbird seat making life miserable for the rest of us.

That is one of the reasons why, in my article on Renewables, I am adamantly opposed to scaling up renewable energy sources into centralized power generating facilities UNLESS they are nationalized. Privatization of centralized power leads to pollution and illicit profits which are then used to buy the government. The government then provides cover for pollution costs and guarantees more profits for the elite and so on and so forth.

This self reinforcing corruption destroys democracy as well as doing grievous harm to the environment. Decentralized renewable power generating facilities provide stable, secure and long term jobs free from the feast or famine fun and games so favored by predatory capitalism. Capitalism requires an insecure labor force so they can be fleeced and set to fight against each other for jobs. Sustainability eliminates all this tyranny and returns the proper view of human existence that everyone should be entitled to a decent lifestyle. The "cog in the wheels of industry" view of humans and their labor as commodities is wrong and has to be s h i t-canned.

Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart. Ps. 97:11

AGelbert

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Ashvin,
If the fresh skin of an animal, cleaned and divested of all hair, fat and other extraneous matter is immersed in a dilute solution of tannic acid, a chemical combination ensues. The gelatinous skin is converted into a non putrescible substance impervious to, and insoluble in, water.
This, sir is leather.
  ;D ;)

Elementary, my dear Watson. See RE for a translation of the above quote from Bugle Notes, otherwise known as the plebe bible at West Point.

I see the trees have lots of cherries to pick from today. Make sure your selection fits in your Procrustean Bed.


Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart. Ps. 97:11

AGelbert

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// But the industrial revolution and how the elite parasitic modus operandi called "capitalism" benefited massively from mass production is the main historical influence that led to our polluted world and pissant wage structure of today. The mass production factories created a new type of slavery without the pejorative connotation of being race linked but it was still slavery. //

It is said the word "saboteur" derives from the Netherlands in the 15th century when workers would throw their sabots (wooden shoes) into the wooden gears of the textile looms to break the cogs, fearing the automated machines would render the human workers obsolete.

Notice how the word "saboteur" has a negative connotation. This shows who controls the historical narrative. //When the English gentry wanted to corral the peasants into working in the factories, as well as use more of their land to grow sheep for fleece free from peasant interference, they came up with a pack of thinly justified herding mechanisms (Enclosure Laws)  that stripped the peasants of their ability to live off the land. //

The process of enclosure has sometimes been accompanied by force, resistance, and bloodshed, and remains among the most controversial areas of agricultural and economic history in England. Marxist and neo-Marxist historians argue that rich landowners used their control of state processes to appropriate public land for their private benefit. //

The only proper economic system that humans should engage in is the egalitarian socialism that the early Christians engaged in as shown in the Book of Acts in the New Testament.//

Sustainability eliminates all this tyranny and returns the proper view of human existence that everyone should be entitled to a decent lifestyle. The "cog in the wheels of industry" view of humans and their labor as commodities is wrong and has to be s h i t-canned.

This is a marvelous analysis worthy of Howard Zinn. My compliments.
And now, in the spirit of Jay Gould ("you can always hire half of the working class to kill the other half"), we have generations ready to fight one another for the last soul-crushing job, and to bid against one another for the privilege of working for the lowest wage. I hope Ayn Rand is roasting on a fresh spit in Hell.


Surly1,
Thanks for the  👍. Yes, the divide and conquer MO is still in full swing. Since learning about Hill & Knowlton propaganda efforts on behalf of fossil fuels and purposed to get the general populace to act against their better interests, I began to nose around and, low and behold, there's a game plan complete with a whisleblower publishing the complete procedure to undermine public support for renewables by publishing "scientific" (from purchased credentialed scientists willing to lie for a buck) studies claiming "evidence" that wind generators "cause global warming"! :o  >:( This malice and aforethought by these reptiles in the service of fossil fuels is targeting all renewables but has the biggest bullseye on wind generators because the Texans are happier than pigs in poop from 3 cents per kWh the generators are pumping out. Get a load of this:
Quote
Anti-Wind Propaganda Plot Exposed by DeSmogBlog
http://cleantechnica.com/2012/05/09/anti-wind-propaganda-plot-exposed-by-desmogblog/

Here's a pseudoscientific windbag trashing wind generators on the WSJ.
Don't miss the video of the fossil fuel tool working at the Wall Street Journal looking so serious and interested in preserving our environment and using the word "science", "scientists", "NASA space temperature studies", etc. to spin a most convincing, though totally false, argument. These bastards really know how to catapult the propaganda! The way they cherry pick random facts and weave tall tales would be amusing if it wasn't so deadly.

If Ashvin would wake up, he would realize that blogs like TAE would benefit from the knock down drag out sessions challenging the fossil fuel f u c k s on their lies and fabrications. His claim that readership goes up here exclusively because of the I, S, A controversy neglects the comments versus the count on the WBS comments forum. I've been watching the count as I'm sure RE has and I will wager the article links are spreading around and more people are coming here for them than for food fights. This is not about Ashvin, Ilargi, Stoneleigh or me; this is about corrupt energy corporation fascism and our struggle to replace their tyranny with renewables. Personalizing the issue is a time tested sophistic debating technique to draw attention from the core issues. You are clever but you still are a bad, bad boy, Ashvin  .

I'm glad you are calling out Ashvin on his hypocritical claim that he is "Mr. Scripture Quoter" here. I guess he missed my quote from Galatians as well as those of others like yourself or he is just continuing with his sophistic cherry picking debating crap.

But, since I have been a bit remiss in quoting scripture when I think it is appropriate  , let me close with my view of how Jesus Christ will handle Ashvin's  claim to being a Christian:

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Matthew 7:21-23

New King James Version (NKJV)
 
I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart. Ps. 97:11

AGelbert

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If Ashvin would wake up, he would realize that blogs like TAE would benefit from the knock down drag out sessions challenging the fossil fuel fucks on their lies and fabrications. His claim that readership goes up here exclusively because of the I, S, A controversy neglects the comments versus the count on the WBS comments forum. I've been watching the count as I'm sure RE has and I will wager the article links are spreading around and more people are coming here for them than for food fights. This is not about Ashvin, Ilargi, Stoneleigh or me; this is about corrupt energy corporation fascism and our struggle to replace their tyranny with renewables. Personalizing the issue is a time tested sophistic debating technique to draw attention from the core issues. You are clever but you still are a bad, bad boy, Ashvin. 

Sorry to break this to you, agelbert, but you're never going to get much exposure of your articles or your views. And I'm not really that sorry, because I suspect you already know this and don't care. You apparently have little interest in making the material easy to digest, available to wider audiences or convenient for discussion, which is why you casually dismissed my suggestions to you earlier on this thread. Who is coming here and commenting except the same people who have always been here? Now that you have become a bitter and hateful person like so many others here, you have are quickly ruining your chances of ever exposing the truth about renewables. Good job!

Quote
I'm glad you are calling out Ashvin on his hypocritical claim that he is "Mr. Scripture Quoter" here. I guess he missed my quote from Galatians as well as those of others like yourself or he is just continuing with his sophistic cherry picking debating crap.

Do you even think before you write anymore, or are you now fully a mindless drone of RE? YOU are the one who lambasted I, S and me for quoting scripture. I responded to set the facts straights. You weren't talking about people who quote scripture on DD and you know it, so please stop lying. Now, can you even answer the questions that I asked you about your views...?

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But, since I have been a bit remiss in quoting scripture when I think it is appropriate  :icon_mrgreen:, let me close with my view of how Jesus Christ will handle Ashvin's  claim to being a Christian:

Sorry, buddy, but I'm not the one who is egoistic, bitter, hateful and judgmental towards others. I'm not the one here holding a continuous grudge to the point where I can't stop attacking another website every chance I get. The fact that you would even say the above means you are ignorant of a basic principle of being Faithful to Christ:

Quote from: Luke6
37“Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned. 38“Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure—pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.”

Ashvin,

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Now that you have become a bitter and hateful person like so many others here

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37“Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned. 38“Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure—pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.”

EndisNigh,
 
Well put!

We RE robots have to stick together.
Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart. Ps. 97:11

AGelbert

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EIN,

Nice try, but that passage is clearly talking about judging the Faith of others in Christ and condemning them for what you perceive to be their lack of Faith, which is exactly what agelbert did.

It is not saying that a person should never state his/her opinion about the characteristics of other people...


Ashvin,

The only person you're fooling is yourself.  You twist the meaning and interpretation from one post to the next to fit your POV.  Stop wasting my time with your BULLSHIT!


According to the following, Luke 6:37 refers to criticizing other people.  You've thrown around so much bullshit that you just stepped in some of your own. 
 
http://www.makingchristknown.com/daily-verse/luke/criticizing-others.htm



Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart. Ps. 97:11

AGelbert

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I appreciate the compliments, but frankly I think your attitude towards blogging is one of the main reasons why DD will never really take off.

Ashvin, the Plane already left the Runway.  DD already gets far more Commentary every day than TAE does, so clearly the commentariat isn't all that bothered by my attitude.

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I don't want to get into defending I or S here, or explain why no one is responding to agelbert's behemoth of an article, because it's really like arguing with a bunch of bitter old crabby women who don't want to hear what you're saying. For all the hate and disdain of TAE here, it's really surprising that every popular thread ends up being about Stoneleigh, Ilargi, me and TAE (not really surprising). You guys accuse it of being irrelevant, yet feel the need to attack it every chance you get. What's the deal with that? Jealousy perhaps? Or perhaps just bitter anger at the site that really helped get you going here, but then predictably decided to disassociate... either way, I don't care anymore.

The reason TAE topics get so much discussion over here is because people can't discuss them on TAE without being CENSORED or BANNED.  Hell, even YOU come over here to discuss RELIGION because you SELF CENSOR discussing it on TAE!

Quote
I feel like I get dumber, more frustrated and more bitter every time I try to delve into a discussion about anything here... so I'm going to stop for the most part, unless it's something I find to be very important, like misrepresentations of theological/spiritual issues, or someone responding reasonably and rationally to a comment I've made. This bitter environment just isn't conducive towards many meaningful discussions, even though I'll gladly admit that the Admins here pose very interesting thoughts and ideas in their articles. The only really productive discussion I've had here, though, was with Ka, and I actually learned a few things about my own Faith from him. Yes, that's right - I'm still learning, but I'm not sure that's true about a lot of other people here.

Your problem dude you already identified yourself which is your arrogance combined with judgementalism and a COMPLETE lack of a sense of humour.  You irritate people, and as a result you get a ton of negative feedback here.  You remember that FUBAR article of yours I cross posted?  If you posted more stuff like that and participated in the economics threads I drop on here instead of Holy Rolling Bible Thumping all the time you would have done a lot better.  You reap what you sow dude.

RE


Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart. Ps. 97:11

AGelbert

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Quote
Now that you have become a bitter and hateful person like so many others here, you have are quickly ruining your chances of ever exposing the truth about renewables. Good job!

Ashvin,

You appear here to believe that fossil fuels and the manner of their dissemination is a lie. Isn't the point of guys like agelbert to do the heavy lifting on such isssues, so the rest of us who are better at making it "digestible" will? Why is it all on him?

Quote
it has become even more clear that Eastern countries such as China and India will not only suffer from financial, energy and environmental collapse, but it will probably hit their populations just as hard as it hits Western populations, if not harder. And I dare say that the DD Admins, and especially RE, are even more extreme in their Doom on these issues than we are at TAE. Agelbert may be right about EROEI methodology and current developments in renewable energy, but I doubt even he believes that it will ultimately scale up and be a feasible alternative for global society. We don't have anywhere close to 50 years for this stuff to get going in earnest, let alone an entire century.

What does this have to do with telling the truth, that renewables would be better for the health of the earth and people, and fossil fuels and the monsters who control them are dragging us toward dystopia at least, even mass extinction? Why don't we have 50-100 years? Because good men and women won't stand up and say "enough".  Do you deny his numbers? Do you have any critique of them, or are you simply throwing them out, with a message precisely as the fossil fuel conglomerates would have it.

F u c k the "global society," if it can only come at the expense to destroying the biosphere. You know what the "global society" means to me? The Japanese beetles devouring my grape and bean leaves. The zebra mussels that have inundated the lake of my birth. The Asian carp that are soon to infest that lake, having been introduced into the lower Mississippi only a decade ago. To HELL with global society. Global domination, more like it. You want to travel around the world? Learn how to sail.


William Hunter Duncan,

I agree with your summation of our situation. Ashvin assumes that, lacking scalability, no Renewable energy system will replace the current system.

Ahem,

From the article Renewables, why they work and why fossil fuels never did:


Quote
I believe that scalability of an energy source, unless it is a government utility (i.e. fully socialized and nonprofit), will lead to unscrupulous short cuts and new externalized costs for the populace for the benefit of private power corporations. The promise of renewables must go hand in hand with decentralized power sources. The authors discarded alleged low EROI renewables for consideration because of their scalability bias. As I stated early in this article, biomass ethanol, if properly used, has an EROI of at least that of gasoline without the environmental baggage of gasoline. And other biomass products like Lemna minor (Duckweed), that grow eight times faster than corn without heavy industrial chemical fertilization or pesticides will certainly produce EROI numbers far above 10.0. Passive geothermal (also discarded by the authors because it isn't scalable) and other renewable heat sources such as e.g. placing mirrors a short distance from the north side of house in winter to reflect sun onto the north facing wall to  drastically lower heating costs will play a very important role in the picture of total sustainability. In addition, decentralized renewable energy infrastructure provides jobs, not in the feast or famine pattern of ethics free, dog eat dog, vicious predatory capitalist “business” model, but in a sustainable, predictable and humane way.

Scalability is NOT a desired outcome but Ashvin feels it is. I've gone to great lengths to explain why it's a bad deal. Tao Jonesing, in his posting on economics also pointed out that scalable manufacturing and "economies of scale" are not necessarily a valid model for improving the overall welfare of the populace. Alan agrees also that decentralization will be important in renewables. Ashvin is the guy that wrote the FUBAR article that I agreed with and now he doesn't want to admit just how FUBAR things are.

I am writing this, even now, because I don't want anybody out there getting the idea that, if we could just scale up renewables, we would solve our energy problems. This is backwards thinking and I have explained why.

What Ashvin doesn't seem to get and you, myself and many others clearly see, is that when you are in a hole, you are supposed to stop digging! You don't need a degree in environmental engineering to see that what we are doing is killing us.

This is a matter of the heart. Thank you william, for expressing your passion and care for humanity. I get pretty damned depressed with the immense difficulty involved in convincing people out there that the paradigm must be changed, not tinkered with or fine tuned. Comments like yours and EndisNigh's straight talking honesty keep me motivated.

Here's a nice video for everyone here to watch. It explains much about how deep the level of dysfunction we are saddled with is in our economy and mindset. Even Ashvin might like it.
 

Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart. Ps. 97:11

 

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