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Author Topic: Member Interesting, Hair Raising, Humorous or Otherwise Unusual Experiences  (Read 4729 times)

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    • Renwable Revolution

You don't think it is a good thing to be allowed to think for oneself, and to be able to pursue one's own path to one's own goals? What point is there to survival if only groupthink is allowed?

The problem is that Individualism leads to EXTINCTION, not SURVIVAL.

Assuming this is true (which I don't, but I'll get to that), I ask again, what is the point of surviving if you are not allowed to think for yourself?

I could speculate on a lot of reasons, like the point is to love others, or to observe the world around you and take joy in it etc.  However, since you speculate that Individualism didn't exist back in the distant past, what was the point then of surviving?

Individualism deemphasizes your dependence on the Group to survive.  By becoming Individualistic, we fractured the society and lost our group understanding of our dependence on the rest of the environment to support not only our own species, but all species.

I guess you haven't noticed my posts about Green Libertarian Socialism. If you had, you would be aware that I am aware of the danger that unrestricted individualism has to the environment, that as I just stated (to Eddie) that I am not in favor of a Ron Paul-like like libertarianism. Any individualist who is not aware of his dependence on the biosphere and of his group to survive is a dangerous idiot.

I did miss those posts.  Just from the title though, "Libertarian" & "Socialism" in the same sentence is an Oxymoron.  I've never met a Libertarian who was a Socialist and vica versa.  It sounds like a kludge to me.

On the other hand, if the group does not allow individualism, then it does not deserve to survive.

See above.

Individualism is the precursor to Greed, because it allows you to justify your own well being at the expense of others in your community.

I dispute this, in that there was Greed long before individualism became an ideal. Greed, and other sins of groupthink societies (like worries about losing face) arise because the groupthink honors the rich and famous. And that has been around as long as history. Individualism, however, never became an ideal until the modern era -- in fact, modernism can just about be defined as the rise of the ideal of individualism.

How do you know Greed predates Individualism?  If you define Individualism as beginning with modernity (when did that begin?) you might make that case, but IMHO you had Individualism going right back to the beginning of Ag.  Kings, Pharoahs etc clearly acted Individually making rules for the society.

Anyhow, while Greed likely existed in some form before Individualism, it really took off with this ideal.

The individual can only exist though if the community exists.  So the individual has to be subservient to the needs of the community, which in fact includes all the other living creatures on the earth as well.

Yes, the individual needs the community, but the community also needs individuals who can think outside the box so that when conditions change it has a way to adapt. So how do we reconcile these needs?

My answer is green libertarian socialism. The social structure needs to be set up so that basic needs of everyone are met, yet in a way that prevents the rise of a nomenklatura, and that preserves the biosphere. And does not require everyone to chant slogans from the Little Red Book. To achieve this will take a lot of thinking, but I think it can be done, but almost certainly not realizable until enough of the thinking class sees it as the only viable alternative.

I never said that Individualism should be eliminated, only that it must remain subservient to the needs of the Group.  In the words of Mr. Spock:

That's just CFS.  Or as Spock would say, "Logical".


Rob not the poor, because he is poor: neither oppress the afflicted in the gate:
For the Lord will plead their cause, and spoil the soul of those that spoiled them. Pr. 22:22-23


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