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    • Renwable Revolution

You don't think it is a good thing to be allowed to think for oneself, and to be able to pursue one's own path to one's own goals? What point is there to survival if only groupthink is allowed?

The problem is that Individualism leads to EXTINCTION, not SURVIVAL.

Assuming this is true (which I don't, but I'll get to that), I ask again, what is the point of surviving if you are not allowed to think for yourself?

Individualism deemphasizes your dependence on the Group to survive.  By becoming Individualistic, we fractured the society and lost our group understanding of our dependence on the rest of the environment to support not only our own species, but all species.

I guess you haven't noticed my posts about Green Libertarian Socialism. If you had, you would be aware that I am aware of the danger that unrestricted individualism has to the environment, that as I just stated (to Eddie) that I am not in favor of a Ron Paul-like like libertarianism. Any individualist who is not aware of his dependence on the biosphere and of his group to survive is a dangerous idiot.

On the other hand, if the group does not allow individualism, then it does not deserve to survive.

Individualism is the precursor to Greed, because it allows you to justify your own well being at the expense of others in your community.

I dispute this, in that there was Greed long before individualism became an ideal. Greed, and other sins of groupthink societies (like worries about losing face) arise because the groupthink honors the rich and famous. And that has been around as long as history. Individualism, however, never became an ideal until the modern era -- in fact, modernism can just about be defined as the rise of the ideal of individualism.

The individual can only exist though if the community exists.  So the individual has to be subservient to the needs of the community, which in fact includes all the other living creatures on the earth as well.

Yes, the individual needs the community, but the community also needs individuals who can think outside the box so that when conditions change it has a way to adapt. So how do we reconcile these needs?

My answer is green libertarian socialism. The social structure needs to be set up so that basic needs of everyone are met, yet in a way that prevents the rise of a nomenklatura, and that preserves the biosphere. And does not require everyone to chant slogans from the Little Red Book. To achieve this will take a lot of thinking, but I think it can be done, but almost certainly not realizable until enough of the thinking class sees it as the only viable alternative.

Well, YEAH, Green Libertarian Socialism does take care of circumscribing individualism to behavior that doesn't harm the community/biosphere.

But RE might claim that the individual IS TOTALLY subservient to the community (i.e. the biosphere) under Green Libertarian Socialism. Me too  . The reason for that is that the buttons that are pushed inside our gray matter when somebody talks of "individualism" are DOING WHATEVER YOU WANT, WHENEVER YOU WANT TO DO IT. As you said, that IS being an idiot.

But THAT is how our society defines "individualism". Your nuanced and ethical definition that differentiates from the individualism (which includes boundless greed) of Nero, Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan and so on is, as you have said before, a hard sell for the average Libertarian (or average American, for that matter).

THAT was the type of "individualism", I believe, that RE is referring to. That is the type of "individualism" that you consider only an idiot would have.

I agree. But the Green Libertarian Socialism definition of "individualism" is not part of the common parlance.

Thinking "out of the box" has always been a function of the wise, regardless of whether they were groupthink type societies or the more dysfunctional, "everyone for themselves" modern social structures.

Are you saying that wise people ONLY began "thinking out of the box" when individualism was given free rein in society? If so, I would beg to differ. That premise will not hold water.

As a matter of fact, modern society is HARDER on "free thinkers" than those with the "calculate seven generation effects before making changes" world view.

We ARE NOT allowed to invent ANY device that challenges the Corporate Status Quo. IF we try, we get suppressed, bought or bopped. The rigid control of Homo SAP thought and endeavor is WORSE THAN NEVER. And the celebrated people TODAY are the greediest IDIOTS the world has EVER witnessed. Paulson, Buffet, Koch Brothers et al put Nero to SHAME!

Your belief in the necessary contribution that thinking outside the box is, of course, is valid. But linking it to "individualism" is incorrect. Thinking outside the box comes from wisdom, not from studying the rules to see how you can break them and make a profit. SOMETIMES the "new widget" that makes somebody some big bucks improves social conditions.

But, by and large, the ones that actually do, are suppressed before they get to market. We have a destructive inertia in our brand of "Capitalist individualism" BECAUSE only the "celebrated" greedballs actually CAN act as individuals. And when they do, which is most of the time, they act like the destructive idiots that they are.
Rob not the poor, because he is poor: neither oppress the afflicted in the gate:
For the Lord will plead their cause, and spoil the soul of those that spoiled them. Pr. 22:22-23


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