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Author Topic: Lost Cities and Civilizations  (Read 24851 times)

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Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2015, 02:03:30 am »
Evidence that Demands a Verdict:
The Consensus Historical View that Piri Reis used South American Coastline maps made by Columbus

Christopher Columbus (Italian: Cristofero Colombo; Spanish: Cristóbal Colón; Portuguese: Cristóvão Colombo; born between 31 October 1450 and 30 October 1451, died 20 May 1506) was an Italian explorer, navigator, and colonizer, citizen of the Republic of Genoa.

Cristofero Colombo's handwritten notes in Latin, on the margins of his copy of The Travels of Marco Polo.

Explorers need maps. So Cristofero began scrounging around for maps, after being inspired by Marco Polo (keep that in mind, please  8)), that would help him in his quest.

Toscanelli's notions of the geography of the Atlantic Ocean, which directly influenced Columbus' plans.
Columbus estimated the distance from the Canary Islands to Japan to be about 3,000 Italian miles (3,700 km, or 2,300 statute miles). The true figure is now known to be vastly larger: about 12,500 km.

First KNOWN map by Cristofero Colombo. This map is quite logical. It covers what Cristofero actually knew before he hitched a ride on the trade winds on the good ships ""Saint Mary" (real name - all ships were named after saints), the "Pint" or "Painted lady", depending on the translation, and the  "Young Girl" (non saint names were probably nicknames - test on Monday  ;D).

Mapa de Cristóbal Colón. Lisboa, taller de Bartolomé y Cristóbal Colón, hacia 1490.
Christopher Columbus map. Lisbon, workshop of Bartolomeo and Christopher Columbus, c.1490

Who in the world would've ever known
What Columbus could do
If Queen Isabella hadn't hocked her jewels
In fourteen ninety two! (it's a song Ashvin. Settle down!).  :D


Queen Isabella's timing was good, but in regard to the Piri Reis map, Cristofero's timing was not. 

So off he went with his crew of fear filled sailors.

Replica of the Pinta. I actually walked on it and talked to a sailor that made the Atlantic crossing (imitating Columbus) on this replica in 1992. A voyage on this vessel is NOT for the feint of heart. It is VERY small for a transatlantic vessel! :o

The New World was first sighted by Rodrigo de Triana on the Pinta on October 12, 1492.

Voyages of Columbus

First voyage 1492

All four voyages

More detail of the four voyages. Ashvin, PLEASE observe how far SOUTH Columbus went.  8)

Columbus always insisted, in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary, that the lands that he visited during those voyages were part of the Asian continent, as previously described by Marco Polo and other European travelers.[9] Columbus' refusal to accept that the lands he had visited and claimed for Spain were not part of Asia might explain, in part, why the American continent was named after the Florentine explorer Amerigo Vespucci and not after Columbus.[40]

That's NOT all, folks. Cristofero died in May of 1506 DENYING the existence of the "New World". That is a historical FACT, Ashvin.

Was Cristofero keeping some land area map knowledge a secret?    I don't think so. But there is "evidence" out there that serious scholars (this is not a joke, pal) accept/swallow/claim/push (and so on) that makes absolutely no sense unless Cristofero was a world class liar and insane too. Yet no serious scholar has called him a liar or an expert in shooting himself in the foot and face.  ???  I'll get to that later on.

Mapping South America

Mapping the east coast of South America, especially in those days when some native tribes along the east coast were quite warlike, is a rather time consuming task. It is safe to say that in 1504, from Cristofero's last sighted point on down, said coast had NOT been mapped by humans yet, right?  Wrong. Well, that's what serious scholars state, so I guess that's what you believe too, Ashvin. I agree. But the serious scholar historical doubletalk is in the details, so to speak.
Let's take the last bit of South American coastline that Cristofero sighted on his third voyage. That was the southernmost point in his four voyages. After the fourth voyage he died without added coastal mapping knowledge beyond what he had mapped.
Guyana = 459 km
Brazil = 7,491 km
Uruguy=  660 km
Argentina = 4,989 km
Total 13,599 km = 8,500 miles


Going back and forth from Europe to South America must be added to the length of time such a herculean task as mapping the east coast of South America would take. 

Back to Cristofero, he mapped most (not all - he did not map a large part of  Cuba and part of what is now Haiti) of the Caribbean islands and part of Central and South American coast in FOUR voyages at varying intervals from 1492-1504. Islands have a lot of coastline so he was quite busy. In 12 years, he mapped approximately 3,500 km (2,187 miles) of coastline.
Vespucci is credited with mapping the coast of eastern  South America south of Cristofero's last point at about 10 degrees south latitude (Guyana).

Vespucci voyages NOTE: Vespucci turned north back to Spain, on his voyage down the east coast of South America, 400 miles north of Tierra de Fuego.

Then we have the Balboa voyage discovering the Pacific (1510-1513). Observe that he did not go further south than Columbus. Balboa is considered the FIRST Conquistador.
Early Voyages of Exploration 1492-1609

But, SO WHAT? Hadn't Vespucci mapped the eastern coast of South America in 1501-1502?  My answer is a DEFINITIVE NO! The "serious" scholar historians are quite satisfied that my claim is false.

The historical record also is clear that Vespucci DID NOT go back to South America after that voyage. Magellan (1519) was the next explorer that took Vespucci's route.

Let me be clear. I'm not saying Vespucci did NOT sail down the coast to approximately 400 miles north of Tierra de Fuego before turning home to Spain. I AM saying his mapping was a cursory job with only the most salient details in his map.

It's a LONG coast. He did NOT know when it would end. He had warlike tribes to deal with if he got too close to the coast (something you HAVE TO DO to map on the relatively tiny vessels of the day with much shorter masts than the tall ships that came centuries later).

You need a daily sun shot to get your latitude at noon and some sort of time keeping to figure your longitude too. It's been a while since I've studied it but is NOT something he could have done quickly, no matter how skilled Vespucci was.

There's also the weather to deal with. ANY TIME it rained, he could NOT map accurately and had to drop anchor until he could see the sun at noon for latitude (for longitude the stars and/or preferably the moon were needed along with the time piece, of course - so rain at night was a pain too!).

And then there were his trip provisions. He had a certain amount of time before he HAD TO turn back to Spain, regardless of what he could forage for on land.

Finally, there were the carreer advancement goals of Vespucci. Columbo was still the big dog when Vespucci became convinced,  on his second voyage, that this was a "new world". He needed to get back to the king to gain favor for his hypothesis. He was a smart cookie (For any scholar reading this: No, I will not stop using pedestrian "man in the street" common terms, language and expresions that make scholars sniff in derision when they read my work. I rather enjoy using vocabulary that communicates reality rather than some ivory tower, high brow, erudite fuddy duddy,  self aggrandizing prose.).

My contention is that Amerigo Vespucci did a RUSH JOB on the eastern South American coast. More on that later.

That brings us to 1513 and, you guessed it   , the Piri Reis map.

Piri Reis map next to current land mass photo. 
Ashvin, there is NO WAY in God's GOOD EARTH that ANYBODY could have mapped 8,500 miles, or even HALF that much, of South American coastline, brought it to Spain, sold a copy to the Turks and enabled Piri to get his dibs on it, never mind reconciling the other maps he had access to and produce the Piri Reis map by 1513!

By 1550, sure. The Spaniards were going to town on the injuns down there by then. They surely had to have the coastlines mapped to find who to torture or enslave for God and Country next (along with knownin' where the ORO and PLATA was too!)

But our serious scholars are having none of that post 1510 (that's right 1510, NOT 1513! ) business.     No sir! It has been accepted by historians that 1513 is the actual date the map was finished.   

The map was signed by Piri Reis, an Ottoman-Turkish admiral, geographer and cartographer, and dated to the month of Muharram in the Islamic year 919 AH, equivalent to 1513 AD.[12][13] It was presented to Ottoman Sultan Selim I in 1517.[4][14]

Our SERIOUS SCHOLARS in this wikipedia article, and EVERY serious historical reference to this EMBARRASSING Piri Reis map (discovered in 1929),  CLAIM that Piri used maps from Cristofero Colombo!

You know, that guy that went to his grave claiming there was no "new world" (see Marco Polo fixation).
You know, that guy that got one upped by Amerigo Vespucci for that very reason!
You know, the guy never got south of about 10 degrees north latitude in all four voyages!

And you claim these "serious" scholar historians (and you) rely on the "BEST" explanation!!!? ???

In the map's legend, Piri inscribed that the map was based on about twenty charts and mappae mundi.[15][16][17] According to Piri, these maps included eight Ptolemaic maps, an Arabic map of India, four newly drawn Portuguese maps from Sindh, Pakistan and a map by Christopher Columbus of the western lands.

From Inscription 6 on the map:

From eight Jaferyas of that kind and one Arabic map of Hind [India], and from four newly drawn Portuguese maps which show the countries of Sind [now in modern day Pakistan], Hind and Çin [China] geometrically drawn, and also from a map drawn by Qulūnbū [Columbus] in the western region, I have extracted it. By reducing all these maps to one scale this final form was arrived at, so that this map of these lands is regarded by seamen as accurate and as reliable as the accuracy and reliability of the Seven Seas[18] on the aforesaid maps."[19]

Surviving fragment of the Piri Reis map showing Central and South America shores. In his notes appended to it is written "the map of the western lands drawn by Columbus"[1]

Piri Reis map
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Surviving fragment of the Piri Reis map showing Central and South America shores. In his notes appended to it is written "the map of the western lands drawn by Columbus"[1]

The Piri Reis map is a world map compiled in 1513 from military intelligence by the Ottoman admiral and cartographer Piri Reis (pronounced [piɾi ɾeis]). Approximately one-third of the map survives; it shows the western coasts of Europe and North Africa and the coast of Brazil with reasonable accuracy. Various Atlantic islands including the Azores and Canary Islands are depicted, as is the mythical island of Antillia and possibly Japan.

The historical importance of the map lies in its demonstration of the extent of exploration of the New World by approximately 1510 , and in its claim to have used Columbus's maps    , otherwise lost, as a source. It used ten Arab sources, four Indian maps sourced from the Portuguese and one map of Columbus. More recently it has been the focus of pseudohistoric claims for the premodern exploration of the Antarctic coast.

Magellan DID travel along, and map, the east coast of South America beginning at a point midway down the coast of Brazil, but he began this voyage in 1519!

What about the Ashvin style "best" explanation logic that the Piri Reis map, if Vespucci didn't produce it, is a backdated Magellan map? 

The Piri Reis map could not have been a "backdated" Magellan piece BECAUSE of two reasons:

1) The Piri Reis map shows the coast of Guyana and Brazil AFTER the last point Columbus sighted and BEFORE the point in Brazil where Magellan sighted land.

2) Magellean mapped the coast from the point he sighted land to the Strait of Magellan, and kept going WEST. His maps DO NOT twist the southern part of South America to the right.

1520 Strait of Magellan map

Magellan’s 1520 transit of the strait took thirty-eight days, many of them spent scouting and discounting alternative paths through the labyrinth. The following expedition in 1525, led by the Spanish nobleman Garcia Jofre de Loaísa, required four and a half months to solve the strait’s puzzle. As a result, the commander recommended that Spain abandon using the route to reach the Pacific. Henceforth, most Spanish expeditions to the Pacific were launched from their ports on the western coasts of Central and South America.

The first English venture through the passage—in a speedy seventeen days—was that of the privateer and circumnavigator Sir Francis Drake in 1578. Exiting into the Pacific, his expedition met fierce winds that pushed his ships south and east to a latitude of about 57° S, where they were surprised to find open water. (Later, this serendipitous discovery was named the Drake Passage; it offered the possibility of a more southern route around South America.)

Final half  in next post on this thread.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 03:55:17 pm by AGelbert »
Rob not the poor, because he is poor: neither oppress the afflicted in the gate:
For the Lord will plead their cause, and spoil the soul of those that spoiled them. Pr. 22:22-23


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