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Re: Darwin
« Reply #120 on: June 02, 2018, 07:24:28 pm »
Alas for me, I need to know how it works as well, but this is just a discussion and exchange of ideas, not argument I hope.

To Agelbert, I will describe two people to show what I believe in both grace and personal will, maybe even karma, without prayer or anything being miraculous.

About a month ago, I was stopped at a red light at a pedestrian crossing on a busy main road at 3.45pm. There was only one person crossing, an Indian schoolboy about 12 years old. He was slouched against the pole. I had been stopped for a while, about 5-10 seconds, when BANG!!! the car beside me had been hit from behind so hard it jumped right across the intersection. It was a very small and light car, an early 90s model ford, driven by immigrant collecting childten from school, but less than a ton.

The car that hit it must have not even slowed or braked, but stopped dead, a larger, modern car driven by a white middle age woman who was in a daze. I guess thats the physics of the impact.

But the amazing thing is that the boy had not crossed the road. I am sure I had been stopped long enough that the green walk signal should have been on. I was on the left lane and the car beside me that got hit was in the right lane, the length of time i was stopped being at least 5 seconds, the boy should have been in front of the car beside me at that moment.  Thats what I call Grace.

My anecdote to do with Will involves a motorcycle cop Ive known a long time. On about July last year at about 5am he also ran straight into the back of another vehicle without even braking, but this time the weight advantage was with the stopped Toyota pickup, not the police bike. I think unless you have constant regular work shift at that time, its very hard to be alert. Do a 12 hr shift at that time when your body clock is screaming for shutdown and here is what can happen. Head first, not good.

When I heard of the injuries, coma, brain damage, lost eye, half a head made of metal and leg still in a brace for now, I thought he was better off dead. Yet he has been positive and humerous throughout, now with a great trick of taking out the glass eye.

The numerous surgeons involved said he will not ride motorbikes again, his reply 'bullshit'. After I dont know how many tests of function and like a 17 year had to sit learners drivers test in a car. Now working towards motorcycle when the brace comes off. He refuses to take a desk job, but goes to the station and sits on the parked police bikes. I have no doubt now he WILL do it again, when i thought he was going to only drive a wheelchair with constant migraine, so i count it miraculous. No religion invoked at all, only Will. Karma? I don't know, except that he's spent a long time on suspension. Mean guy? No, opposite.  The outpouring of support from literally hundreds of people saying what a humbling inspiration this is, is testament to that.

I agree with you that the kid was saved by God's grace.

About the other fellow, I hear ya. People who just give up die pretty quick. It's good that he has not given up. The will does play a part in human interactions. I agree that is important.

But, I've had too much strange stuff happen to me when my will was working exactly backwards to credit the will above a certain level of cause and effect routine interaction.

The experience was coming back from a movie and stopped at a light (I previously wrote about it here about 5 years ago). There wasn't a car in sight. It was dark, quiet, and the light turned green. I'm not colorblind. I was young and a certified commercial pilot.

I just sat there, thinking nothing in particular. No, I wasn't thinking about the movie. I was pretty much in neutral, watching he green light and the surrounding street intersection darkness. Nobody was talking at the time. I had ZERO distractions. A few seconds went by and my brother in the back seat with his wife, who's will was working normally ;D, (my wife was in the front seat) said, "It isn't going to get any greener". I said, right, and immediately took my foot off the brake and moved it to the accelerator as a car without headlights streaked a few feet from the front of my car in the road I was about to cross at over 70 mph. Had I moved, we would have all been dead. We were in a 1966 White Toyota Corolla just like the one below:

I crept accross the intersection and drove home uneventfully.

We were all deathly quiet the rest of the way home. That car would not have protected us and we all knew it. It's hard to chit chat when your heart is in your throat. 😨

The strength of will was my enemy there. You can call it anything you want that saved four people's arses that night, but I call it God's grace. Mind you, I was an atheist at the time. The kid you observed got his will short circuited temporarily exactly the way mine was.

God or one of His messengers (angel means messenger) does this kind of thing routinely. Materialists have trouble handling it. As an atheist, I just could not figure it out. Eventually, I did.

It is impossible to understand these types of experiences from a mechanistic reductionist perspective which so limits the atheist when confronted with cause and effect anomalies that result in the saving of lives. As Palloy and some others here will probably do from reading this anecdote, I made up lots of excuses and tried to relegate the experience to a "coincidence". That was bullshit. It was no coincidence, but I won't get into a hair splitting back and forth with him or anybody else here who thinks I'm telling tall tales. If they think I'm full of baloney horse hockey, that's their problem, not mine.

The human strength of Will isn't always a plus. Sometimes it is extremely counterproductive.

Palloy ASS-U-MEs the universe is a random coincidence

AG: It is impossible to understand these types of experiences from a mechanistic reductionist perspective which so limits the atheist

So you make something up about God's Divine Intervention instead, and then later trot that out as a real life example of Divine Intervention, thus "proving it". I won't try and explain to you that it was a coincidence, because you are already invested in the idea it was no coincidence, without any evidence.  Something nearly happened, but didn't. Imagine how frequently that happens on the roads. It's a wonder we are all still alive.

You forget to put the eye roll at the end of your last typical example of Palloy style sophistry and gratuitous mocking. ;)

True to form, you cannot entertain the mere possibility that my experience was not a coincidence, so you resort to mocking my ability, at that time, as an atheist, to objectively analyze the event.

Perhaps I do not have as high an IQ as you, sir. But, it is rather presumptuous of you to to ASS-U-ME that each and every event in the 3D universe is merely a probability function. Yeah, right, it's all about randomness, isn't it, Palloy? I don't think so.

You, of course, are entitled to your opinion, but not to the point of irrational straw grasping. Yes, you WANT to think that is what I did. I maintain that you are the one who MUST do that to defend your flawed world view.

I was there once but I will never convince you of that, so let us move on to the flawed basis of your belief that there is no creator God, therefore the universe is a random vortex of particles bumping into each other and mutating to randomly produce life from amino acid precursors on up to the evolutionary apex of intelligence and complexity in the form of Palloys.

Leaving all the spiritual intervention stuff, since you consider all that "silly superstition of crutch seeking weak minds", let me remind you that your "it's all random" view of the universe has been scientifically proven to be false.

You see, Mr. Mathematician, there are quite a few credentialed, non-Christian mathematicians that would take issue with you, starting from your assumptions about random math and going straight to whether evolution is possible or not in a random universe.

This material is excerpted from the book, HISTORY OF EVOLUTIONARY THEORY. An asterisk (*) by a name indicates that person is not known to be a creationist. Of over 4,000 quotations in the books this Encyclopedia is based on, only 164 statements are by creationists. You will have a better understanding of the following statements by scientists if you will also read the web page, History of Evolutionary Theory.

The biggest group of people who do not believe in evolution is probably mathematicians, and not Christians


Most people assume that a dialectic exists between the paradigm of evolution and deep time on one side, and religion on the other.  That is basically wrong.  The dialectic is between evolution(ism) and other branches of science, particularly mathematics and probability theory. In the mid 1960s when computers capable of analyzing the math and probabilities involved in evolution became available a series of symposia were held at the Wistar center at the University of Pennsylvania and a non-meeting of the minds ensued involving evolutionary biologists on one side and mathematicians on the other, and both sides left with the feeling that the other was in some sort of denial.


With the dawn of large main-frame computers came the data needed to disprove evolution. Wistar buried evolutionary theory. Yet the evolutionists won't admit it.

Evolutionary theory is a myth. God created everything; the evidence clearly points to it. Nothing else can explain the evidence found in nature. This is science vs. evolution—a Creation-Evolution Encyclopedia, brought to you by Creation Science Facts.

CONTENTS: Wistar Destroys Evolution

The Philadelphia Meeting: Evolution destroyed by mathematical facts at Wistar

The Alpbach Meeting: More evidence against evolution

The New York Meeting: The situation became even worse

The Cambridge Meeting: The finishing touch


It was not until the 1960s that the neo-Darwinists really began fighting among themselves in earnest. At Wistar, evolutionary theory was destroyed by mathematical facts.

"The ascription of all changes in form to chance has long caused raised eyebrows. Let us not dally with the doubts of nineteenth-century critics, however; for the issue subsided. But it raised its ugly head again in a fairly dramatic form in 1967, when a handful of mathematicians and biologists were chattering over a picnic lunch organized by the physicist, Victor Weisskopf, who is a professor at Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) and one of the original Los Alamos atomic bomb group, at his house in Geneva. `A rather weird discussion' took place.   

The subject was evolution by natural selection. The mathematicians were stunned by the optimism of the evolutionists about what could be achieved by chance. So wide was the rift that they decided to organize a conference, which was called Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Theory of Evolution.

The conference was chaired by * Sir Peter Medawar, whose work on graft rejection won him a Noble prize and who, at the time, was director of the Medical Research Council's laboratories in North London. Not, you will understand, the kind of man to speak wildly or without careful thought. In opening the meeting, he said: `The immediate cause of this conference is a pretty widespread sense of dissatisfaction about what has come to be thought of as the accepted evolutionary theory in the English-speaking world, the so-called neo-Darwinian theory. This dissatisfaction has been expressed from several quarters."—*G.R. Taylor, Great Evolution Mystery (1983), p. 4.

A milestone meeting
was the Wistar Institute Symposium held in Philadelphia in April 1966. The chairman, *Sir Peter Medawar, made the following opening remark:

"The immediate cause of this conference is a pretty widespread sense of dissatisfaction about what has come to be thought as the accepted evolutionary theory in the English-speaking world, the so-called neo-Darwinian theory . . These objections to current neo-Darwinian theory are very widely held among biologists generally; and we must on no account, I think, make light of them."— *Peter Medawar, remarks by the chairman, *Paul Moorhead and *Martin Kaplan (ed.), Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution, Wistar Institute Monograph No. 5.

A number of mathematicians, familiar with the biological problems, spoke at that 1966 Wistar Institute. They clearly refuted neo-Darwinianism in several areas, and showed that its "fitness" and "adaptation" theories were tautologous—little more than circular reasoning. In contrast, some of the biologists who spoke at the convention could not see the light. They understood bugs and turtles, but could grasp neither the mathematical impossibilities of evolutionary theory nor the broad picture of how thoroughly defunct evolution really is.

For example, one of the mathematicians, *Murray Eden of MIT, explained that life could not begin by the "random selection," which is the basic pillar of evolutionary teaching. Yet he said that if randomness is set aside, then only "design" would remain—and that would require purposive planning by an Intelligence.

* C.H. Waddington, a prominent British evolutionist, scathingly attacked neo-Darwinism, maintaining that all it proved was that plants and animals could have offspring!  :o  ;D

The 1966 Wistar convention was the result of a meeting of mathematicians and biologists the year before in Switzerland. Mathematical doubts about Darwinian theory had been raised; and, at the end of several hours of heated discussion, it was agreed that a meeting be held the next year to more fully air the problems. *Dr. Martin Kaplan then set to work to lay plans for the 1966 Wistar Institute.

It was the development of tremendously powerful digital computers that sparked the controversy. At last mathematicians were able to work out the probability of evolution ever having occurred. They discovered that, mathematically, life would neither have begun nor evolved by random action.

For four days the Wistar convention continued, during which a key lecture was delivered by *M.P. Schutzenberger, a computer scientist, who explained that computers are large enough now to totally work out the mathematical probabilities of evolutionary theory—and they demonstrate that it is really fiction.

*Murray Eden showed that it would be impossible for even a single ordered pair of genes to be produced by DNA mutations in the bacteria, E. coli,—with 5 billion years in which to produce it! His estimate was based on 5 trillion tons of the bacteria covering the planet to a depth of nearly an inch during that 5 billion years. He then explained that the genes of E. coli contain over a trillion (1012) bits of data. That is the number 10 followed by 12 zeros. *Eden then showed the mathematical impossibility of protein forming by chance. He also reported on his extensive investigations into genetic data on hemoglobin (red blood cells).

Hemoglobin has two chains, called alpha and beta. A minimum of 120 mutations would be required to convert alpha to beta. At least 34 of those changes require changeovers in 2 or 3 nucleotides. Yet, *Eden pointed out that, if a single nucleotide change occurs through mutation, the result ruins the blood and kills the organism!

*George Wald stood up and explained that he had done extensive research on hemoglobin also,—and discovered that if just ONE mutational change of any kind was made in it, the hemoglobin would not function properly. For example, the change of one amino acid out of 287 in hemoglobin causes sickle-cell anemia. A glutamic acid unit has been changed to a valine unit—and, as a result, 25% of those suffering with this anemia die.

For more information on the 1966 Wistar Institute, we refer you to the book quoted above, by * Moorehead and *Kaplan. For much more on mathematical problems confronting evolutionary theory. (See DNA and Cells).


Yeah, Palloy, rather than addressing any of the irrefutable points made above, you will claim the link goes to a creation web site so "all the info is suspect". You will pretend these RED ASTERISKS * don't mean it says they mean. You will do this without a shred of evidence and without making any attempt to verify the names and credentials and quotes of the various mathmaticians mentioned. You will do this because you cannot handle the possibliity that we live in an intelligently designed universe.

Let's assume, for the moment, that all the above is ALSO not worth arguing about.

HOW do you explain THIS IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE that we live in a NON-RANDOM reality?:

Agelbert NOTE:The concept of a RANDOM UNIVERSE is being taken apart step by step, along with the BELIEF that the law of conservation of energy applies to all matter AND that phi symmetry ordered subatomic particles cannot enter this universe ex nihilo. Non random creation = Intelligent Designer did/does it 24/7.  ;D

Golden ratio discovered in a quantum world

Researchers from the Helmholtz-Zentrum Berlin für Materialien und Energie (HZB, Germany), in cooperation with colleagues from Oxford and Bristol Universities, as well as the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, UK, have for the first time observed a nanoscale symmetry hidden in solid state matter. They have measured the signatures of a symmetry showing the same attributes as the golden ratio famous from art and architecture.  Read more at: http://phys.org/news182095224.html#jCp

Quantum experiment verifies Einstein's 'spooky action at a distance'

Mar 24, 2015

An experiment devised in Griffith University's Centre for Quantum Dynamics has for the first time demonstrated Albert Einstein's original conception of "spooky action at a distance" using a single particle. http://phys.org/news/2015-03-quantum-einstein-spooky-action-distance.html#ajTabs

When Newton said the following, he was NOT giving "lip service to the Church in order to avoid trouble", he was being a SCIENTIST that KNOWS the difference between PHYSICS MATH and FAITH.

Yeah, Palloy, you will discard everything above as evidence of a non-random universe simply because your world view is a BELIEF SYSTEM, not an evidence based system, as the studies above prove.

There is an experiment called The Bartel and Szostak experiment which is basically a straw grasping attempt, devoid of any real biological facts about of life processes, to claim that "the odds are NOT stacked against an origin of life by natural processes.". These Palloys came to the "inescapable conclusion" that "genetic information can in fact emerge from random mixtures of polymers, as long as the populations contain large numbers of polymeric molecules with variable monomer sequences, and a way to select and amplify a specific property. "

Did you catch that? The word they used was, "INESCAPABLE". That was in addition to "AMAZING". That sounds real "scientific", doesn't it. Well, it does to the Palloys of this world, but any molecular biologist should laugh this experiment to scorn.

The Bartel and Szostak experiment is an embarrasing application of a tiny experiment to come to some hyperbolic conclusion labelled as "inescapable". This is NOT, in any way, the proper application of the scientific method to address the issue of randomness or not in the universe in general, and the biosphere in particular.

You are real good at dancing around the flaws in your world view, but the experiment that evolutionsts/atheists like you try to use as evidence actually makes a COMPLETE MOCKERY of your shamefully evidence free, baseless, and groundless Creator rejecting assumption that we live in a random universe.

The Bartel and Szostak experiment "inescapable" conclusion is an example of a syllogism. Definition "1" below is then used with some very limited definition "2" to come up with the clever use of definition "3".



syl·lo·gism [ sil- uh-jiz- uhm]


1.Logic. an argument the conclusion of which is supported by two premises, of which one (major premise) contains the term (major term) that is the predicate of the conclusion, and the other (minor premise) contains the term (minor term) that is the subject of the conclusion; common to both premises is a term (middle term) that is excluded from the conclusion. A typical form is “All A is C; all B is A; therefore all B is C.”

2. deductive reasoning.

3. an extremely subtle, sophisticated, or deceptive argument.

Most people have probably stopped reading this by now. Palloy is probably preparing a short quip from his rather large arsenal of gratuitous mocking snipes to undermine this post.  ::)

For those who are still here, let me explain the flaws in the Bartel and Szostak experiment.

First, the Bartel and Szostak 1993 experiment and the observations ONLY, not the (unscientific, evidence free, wishful thinking, jumped to) conclusions:

ALLEGED GOAL of the Bartel and Szostak 1993 experiment: To see if a completely random system of molecules could undergo selection in such a way that defined species of molecules emerged with specific properties.

Their goal was to see if a completely random system of molecules could undergo selection in such a way that defined species of molecules emerged with specific properties. They began by synthesizing many trillions of different RNA molecules about 300 nucleotides long, but the nucleotides were all random nucleotide sequences.

At the start of the experiment, every molecule of RNA was different from all the rest because they were assembled by a chance process. There were no species, just a mixture of trillions of different molecules.

But then a selective hurdle was imposed, a ligation reaction that allowed only certain molecules to survive and reproduce enzymatically.

In a few generations groups of molecules began to emerge that displayed ever-increasing catalytic function.

After only 4 rounds of selection and amplification they began to see an increase in catalytic activity, and after 10 rounds the rate was 7 million times faster than the uncatalyzed rate. It was even possible to watch the RNA evolve. At the start of the reaction, nothing could be seen, because all the molecules are different. But with each cycle new bands appeared. Some came to dominate the reaction, while others went extinct.

Sounds great, don't it, sports fans and happy atheist evolutionists everywhere?

As stated by the scientists, the GOAL was NOT to obtain evidence for natural selection of life precursor molecules (e.g. amino acids - they come BEFORE the RNA nucleotides) to the point that said molecules (which certainly are NOT life forms that can go extinct) would increase in life promoting complexity. No sir, their stated GOAL was "To see if a completely random system of molecules could undergo selection in such a way that defined species of molecules emerged with specific properties."

These RNA molecules were defined by the sequence of bases in their structures, which caused them to fold into specific conformations that had catalytic properties. 

Those "specific properties" they were performing the experiment to possibly observe involved catalytic activity. Yes, enzymes in life forms ARE catalysts, but an increase in catalytic activity happens routinely in all sorts of mixed substrates in the physical world, completely unrelated to life or natural selection.

But even before that they NONRANDOMLY synthesized a bunch of RNA nucleotides of a specific size. Yes the sequence within those 300 nucleotides was random, but the original LENGTH was NOT. The chance they mention in passing is, as you will see, unrelated to the catalytic activity change that they parade as evidence of "natural selection". Hey Einsteins, the INSTANT YOU nonrandom LENGTH synthesized all those RNA nucleotides, randomness in regard to LENGTH, went out the window!

But let us forgive these scientists for using every opportunity to syllogistically throw that word "chance" at us. Let's look at the rather creative conclusions they garnered form their observations:

In other words, species of molecules appeared out of this random mixture in an evolutionary process that closely reflects the natural selection that Darwin outlined for populations of higher animals.

Sorry friends, but the above statement is composed of an amazing series the most egregious and illogical, straw grasping leaps of faith I have read about in a long time. The key to reaction rates (catalytic activity) in RNA nucleotides, in living systems, does involve the sequence somewhat. BUT, the overwhelming factor is the LENGTH. WHY? Because each segment must position itself to create a copy, then move out of the way for the next segment to do its thing. It is expected that a chemical mix of short 300 nucleotide randomly sequenced (Of course, it would have cost them an arm and a leg to produce trillions of identically sequenced 300 nucleotide long RNA molecules to start off - they went the cheap route. Trying to use the random sequences within the 300 nucleotide synthesized length thing as some "evolutionary" evidence is disingenuous. 👎) would randomly interact to produce various lengths. When there is no life to force RNA nucleotides to be of a certain length and of a particluar sequence for making a specific protein, that's what chemicals do.

To begin with RNA molecules are NOT "species" in the Darwinian definition, where a "species" is some form of self reproducing LIFE FORM. Secondly, the "species" of molecules that emerged randomly from a nonrandom synthesized amount (placed there by the intelligent designing scientists), evidence increased catalytic activity, not a "beneficially" mutated life form. WHY? Because the reaction rate of enzymes in living beings MUST be slow for some processes and fast for others. The fact that electrophoresis revealed a chance increase in catalytic activity (faster reactions) can in no way be a basis for claiming said RNA nucleotides had "evolved".

For example, neurotoxins from certain spiders can so speed up our enzyme catalytic activity that we visibly start vibrating. The victim dies if that HIGH RATE of catalytic activity is not arrested. The same life threatening activity, but more muted, can be observed in poisons that arrest enzymatic (slow down bio-chemical reactions) activity so much that we die.

Increased catalytic activity in a series of batches of RNA nucleotides (due to random length changes mostly, not random sequence changes) is NOT evidence of Evolution or Natural Selection.

Another blatantly flawed rationale of these scientists was to believe that RNA nucleotide sequences are "analagous to genes". That is such a breathtakingly ignorant statement that my eyes nearly popped out of my head when I read it.

A gene is a MASSIVELY complex biological structure within a chromosone. It is an integral part of the chromosone. It is alive. It is self testing and repairing. It resists change. It has myriad mechanisms to ensure the gene is reproduced exactly in the offspring of the host life form. Claiming RNA nucleotide sequences are "analagous to genes" is like claiming a brick is analogous to the Empire State Building.

Yeah, they interact with some VERY SPECIFIC RNA LONG, LONG nucleotides, not those short segments used in the Bartel and Szostak experiment. But, even when they interact, they will NOT allow ANY biochemical reaction speed but the one the gene is pre-programmed for.

The assumption that increased catalatyc activity is tantamount to a beneficial mutation (i.e. natural selction evolution) is a ridiculously ignorant assertion.  👎

The sequences were in essence analogous to genes, because the information they contained was passed between generations during the amplification process.

They were on a roll by this time. Now the different runs were being called "generations". The "information" (you know, the INFORMATION PUT THERE by the intelligent designing scientists who synthesized the first batch of RNA nucleotides ;D ). of course (there is no life process going on here. There is no gene policing the production of the nucleotides. All that is going on is Brownian movement and Diffusion favoring weightier molecules), changed randomly.👨‍🔬 Big deal.

The Syllogistic Roll now really picks up speed  . They had "species" that were "evolving" and, of course, "dominating" (i.e. the Palloys), while others were "going extinct" (i.e. the Agelberts) too! 

The results were amazing. After only 4 rounds of selection and amplification they began to see an increase in catalytic activity, and after 10 rounds the rate was 7 million times faster than the uncatalyzed rate. It was even possible to watch the RNA evolve.

We finally get the gel electrophoresis truth molehill that they creatively formed a natural selection evolutionary mountain out of.

Nucleic acids can be separated and visualized by a technique called gel electrophoresis. The mixture is put in at the top of a gel held between two glass plates and a voltage is applied. Small molecules travel fastest through the gel, and larger molecules move more slowly, so they are separated. In this case, RNA molecules having a specific length produce a visible band in a gel.

At the start of the reaction, nothing could be seen, because all the molecules are different. But with each cycle new bands appeared. Some came to dominate the reaction, while others went extinct.

Those "new bands" were nothing but Browning movement and Diffusion causing a NONRANDOM 300 nucleotide length group of synthesized RNA to revert to a normal distribution, with some longer and some shorter, as always happens in nonliving chemical substrates.

"Dominate"? "Extinct"?

In the light of all the above, please read again and ponder what these credentialed wonders of the scientific community (i.e. these wishful thinking, happy evolution talk pushing, irrational ivory tower atheist bullshit artists) concluded:

The Bartel and Szostak experiment directly refutes the argument that the odds are stacked against an origin of life by natural processes. The inescapable conclusion is that genetic information can in fact emerge from random mixtures of polymers, as long as the populations contain large numbers of polymeric molecules with variable monomer sequences, and a way to select and amplify a specific property. 

Here's the link for you to go and read it like your bible, Palloy. I'm sure you will find some way to justify these fairy tale carnival barkers for evolution. That's what atheists 😈 do. 👎👎👎

YOU are the one so invested in your world view that you refuse to even ponder the possiblity that all your life you have been fooled by the egocentric fantasy that there is no God that you have to answer to. You are even more sad than you are wrong. Have a nice day.


Palloy: The universe is a random vortex of particles bumping into each other and mutating to randomly produce life from amino acid precursors on up to the evolutionary apex of intelligence and complexity in the form of Palloys. There is no creator God.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2018, 05:42:48 pm by AGelbert »
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