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Author Topic: The Big Picture of Renewable Energy Growth  (Read 18921 times)

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    • Renwable Revolution
Debate with a Fossil Fueler about Wind Power
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2013, 10:11:05 pm »
Debate with a Fossil Fueler about Wind Power and the future of renewable energy:


Quote from: agelbert on Today at 01:09:31 PM

Wind energy will be available AND cheap as long as the earth rotates and the sun shines.

Lets discuss this for a minute, from the perspective of a power engineer running some portion of the grid somewhere for a moderate sized city.

I would love to. However what you want to discuss is not my statement, since that is not challengeable.

What you want to DISCUSS is the Amount of Energy available Instantly 24/7. You want to discuss that because you labor under the view that wind power cannot deliver X number of MW when your community, all of a sudden, from 10PM to 2AM Thursday night, needs them.

The issue of the rate is a separate one you cannot seem to let go of because you are STUCK in a paradigm of varying rates according to demand. This paradigm of yours is fossil fuel base load logic based and is going the way of the dodo bird.

Fossil Fuel (FF) plants have, say 80% base load capability 24/7. They WANT people to use that baseload but, of course, people DON'T during slack periods. Consequently, the FF utility tries, by super low rates during slack periods, to get people to use it. WHY? If you REALLY know anything about power usage, you know that, below baseload, a lot of SHUNTING (throwing MW AWAY) happens. The FF PIGS don't like that. They studied the communitee and built their pollution factory to get as high a base load 24/7 as possible. They never gave a flat **** about the needs of the community, just their ****ing bottom line and YOU KNOW IT!

When baseload is exceeded and they are in prime rate quickstart gas power plant territory, they are happy as pigs in poop to provide it. They have power sharing agreements with surrounding grid blood sucking utilities to get MORE power if they are maxed out above base and peak power plant capability. EVERYTHING ROTATES around PROFIT for the FF utility, NOT SERVICE.

That's what YOU live and die by. That's what YOU think is logical. That's what YOU think energy distribution is all about. That's why YOU JUST DO NOT UNDERSTAND WIND POWER.

Wind, like your ****ed up FF poison factories, is ALSO tied into the grid, which consequently, with the new electronics and computer monitoring, increase or decrease power output IRRESPECTIVE of some baseload criteria.

Baseload, beyond initial infrastructure design according to the community size, will NO LONGER be an issue although there will probably be a rate penalty for high use irrespective of the time you are using it.

The new renewable energy paradigm will NOT BE ABOUT THE COST OF ENERGY; It will be about the COST OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE SERVICE AND MAINTENANCE. For all practical purposes, the FUEL cost of energy itself will be  ZERO so people are going to pay for the infrastructure as a service package with a TOP limit on energy use monitored by smart meters based on ENVIRONMENTAL considerations, not the baseload bottom line of the utility predatory capitalist "business model".

There isn't going to BE any "externalized cost" BULL**** for the environment to please "investors". The new business model will work more like a bond issue with the coupon based on a projected moderate profit from installation and maintenance of infrastructure, PERIOD.

I know, I'm speaking GREEK to you. Fine.

For an in depth look at the future of energy use and distribution, read this article. The author is an expert that knows far more about grid nuances than I do so you can argue with him about details.   

What Happens When Energy Prices Are Zero? 

Originally published on RenewEconomy.

Numerous studies tell us that 100% renewables is possible, and cost-effective. But how to structure an energy market where there is no fuel cost? Germany is already grappling with this dilemma, and the world is watching with interest. This is part of a series of articles on Germany Energiewende. More can be found in our Insight section.

One of the big questions about scenarios for 100 per cent renewable energy production is how to structure the energy market. 

We now know that having electricity supplied to a major economy entirely by renewable energy sources is possible, and most likely no more expensive than building new fossil fuel generation.

What we don’t know is how to structure the energy market so it provides the right incentives: If the marginal cost of solar and wind energy is close enough to zero (because there is no fuel cost), then the energy price in a 100 per cent wind and solar market is going to be zero – at least in the current market structure. But who would invest?

Full article Here:

Read more at http://cleantechnica.com/2013/12/10/happens-energy-prices-zero/#0XGcSzaKjjh4L6er.99

My Comment on the above article: :icon_sunny:

• 20 hours ago

Well, consider this. Without artificial scarcity or price shocks from fossil fuels, two things happen:

1) The power to buy politicians and undermine democracies is lessened which, in turn, saves trillions of dollars in war profiteering and human misery.

2) A world at peace has a much more reliable infrastructure and investment climate. Stability attracts investors for a predictable, stable yield for Renewable Energy infrastructure bond issues.

The two factors above translate to the yield on the investment being a function of the price people pay for the infrastructure that brings them the energy, period. All this machinery has MTBF cycles and can be depreciated in a thirty or forty year accounting cycle.

People will pay for service, not the energy itself, even though, of course, the target for all of us is to be carbon-neutral so the environmental consideration will always affect the pricing structure to possibly penalize high energy cost based purely on environmental considerations, not the energy cost or the infrastructure.

I bring this up because Homo Sapiens is smart enough to set up a 100% renewable energy economy and proceed to overwhelm it through over use of this "free" energy. There is a biosphere out there we can no longer neglect. This time the environmental cost, and there always will be one, must be paid as we use that energy. We do not want a repeat of the greed gluttony of the fossil fuel industry and utility company "investor" profits that encouraged polluting energy and overuse of energy as well.

Just my two cents.

Remember what Thomas Edison said in 1931. He was a wise man but we did not do what he proposed because of greed, not because we couldn't develop the technology. We must look at energy as a part of life, to be used prudently, not as an unlimited "fuel" to be used willy nilly.

1931: Edison Advocates for Solar Energy over Fossil Fuels

In a conversation with fellow inventors and entrepreneurs Harvey Firestone and Henry Ford, Thomas Edison says of renewable energy sources: "We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using nature’s inexhaustible sources of energy—sun, wind, and tide.… I’d put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don’t have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that." [US History, 2013; About Thomas Edison, 8/19/2013]

It's time to stopped chopping the fence around the house of ALL the earthlings we share this planet with. As self aware beings responsible for 100% of the environmental degradation, if we keep putting ourselves first, we are guilty of criminal negligence.

By the way, in your energy demand calculus you also left out the FACT that there will be NUMEROUS Renewable Energy technologies ALL LINKED from geothermal to solar to wind to biomass to ocean currents using various new storage technologies in addition to the old ones from hydropower to a plethora of battery, compressed air and inertia systems. It's NOT going to be about making energy SCARCE to charge people more. That's OVER. But I know you don't agree.

It's going to be about PRUDENT (as in, respecting the needs of the biosphere) energy use, not how much you can "afford" to buy.

For over a century, you fossil fuelers have gone WAY OUT OF YOUR WAY to destroy new energy technologies by hook or by crook. In the video are a few examples. Some might be pie in the sky but MOST of them are for real and are the DEATH KNELL of the war profiteering, murderous, "energy is scarce so we have to fight, kill for and hoard"  ****ED UP world view the "apex predator" Intelli-MORONS among us love to CON we-the-people with.

Have a nice day.

« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 08:36:02 pm by AGelbert »
Rob not the poor, because he is poor: neither oppress the afflicted in the gate:
For the Lord will plead their cause, and spoil the soul of those that spoiled them. Pr. 22:22-23


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