+- +-

+-User

Welcome, Guest.
Please login or register.
 
 
 
Forgot your password?

+-Stats ezBlock

Members
Total Members: 42
Latest: Heredia05
New This Month: 0
New This Week: 0
New Today: 0
Stats
Total Posts: 10669
Total Topics: 246
Most Online Today: 14
Most Online Ever: 52
(November 29, 2017, 04:04:44 am)
Users Online
Members: 0
Guests: 0
Total: 0

Author Topic: Gravity Energy Storage - The New Stone Age  (Read 62 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

AGelbert

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14889
  • Location: Colchester, Vermont
    • Agelbert Truth AND Consequences
Gravity Energy Storage - The New Stone Age
« on: January 18, 2018, 11:22:04 pm »


January 18, 2018

Spiegel / Heindl Energy
German company plans large-scale power storage using massive rock block

Southern German company Heindl Energy proposes to overcome one of the energy transition’s central challenges – how to store renewable electricity on a large scale – with a pumped hydro system that does not require mountains, reports Ralph Diermann for Spiegel Online.

The company wants to use a massive rock piston with a diameter of at least 100 metres, which is lifted hydraulically using electrical pumps powered by renewable energy. Storage experts told the author that the idea is valid in principle, but many technical hurdles will have to be overcome. Heindl Energy, which has received support from a venture capital investor, is currently in negotiations to build a pilot project with a diameter of 20 metres in Saudi Arabia.



About Gravity Storage

Gravity Storage is a concept with which unprecedentedly large quantities of power can be stored for a long time of 6-14 hours, and can be made available again.

The fundamental principle is based on the hydraulic lifting of a large rock mass. Using electrical pumps, as already used today in pumped storage power plants, water is pumped beneath a movable rock piston, thereby lifting the rock mass.

During times of insufficient generation of renewable power, the water which is under high pressure from the rock mass, is routed to a turbine, as in conventional hydroelectric plants, and generates electricity using a generator.

The capacity of energy storage reaches 8 GWh or more  , comparable to large Pumped Hydro Storage.

The rock piston should have a diameter of at least 100 meters in order to be competitive with pumped storage power plants. The real costs will vary for each site. But we calculate with costs of about 200 USD/kWh capacity at a size of 250-meter diameter.

READ MORE:

https://www.heindl-energy.com/technical-concept/
Leges         Sine    Moribus     Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

AGelbert

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14889
  • Location: Colchester, Vermont
    • Agelbert Truth AND Consequences
AG,
Check these german guys out http://www.sun-orbit.de/  They have pretty much realized all my best ideas on synergistic greenhouse energy systems.  They are all combined power solar thermal systems based on low speed high volume stirling engine systems.


To RE: About that gravity system you are pondering - check this out

If this is applied on a somewhat smaller scale, it will work better than a tower mechanism, simply because it is less exposed to the elements:



January 18, 2018

Spiegel / Heindl Energy
German company plans large-scale power storage using massive rock block

Southern German company Heindl Energy proposes to overcome one of the energy transition’s central challenges – how to store renewable electricity on a large scale – with a pumped hydro system that does not require mountains, reports Ralph Diermann for Spiegel Online.

The company wants to use a massive rock piston with a diameter of at least 100 metres, which is lifted hydraulically using electrical pumps powered by renewable energy. Storage experts told the author that the idea is valid in principle, but many technical hurdles will have to be overcome. Heindl Energy, which has received support from a venture capital investor, is currently in negotiations to build a pilot project with a diameter of 20 metres in Saudi Arabia.



About Gravity Storage

Gravity Storage is a concept with which unprecedentedly large quantities of power can be stored for a long time of 6-14 hours, and can be made available again.

The fundamental principle is based on the hydraulic lifting of a large rock mass. Using electrical pumps, as already used today in pumped storage power plants, water is pumped beneath a movable rock piston, thereby lifting the rock mass.

During times of insufficient generation of renewable power, the water which is under high pressure from the rock mass, is routed to a turbine, as in conventional hydroelectric plants, and generates electricity using a generator.

The capacity of energy storage reaches 8 GWh or more  , comparable to large Pumped Hydro Storage.

The rock piston should have a diameter of at least 100 meters in order to be competitive with pumped storage power plants. The real costs will vary for each site. But we calculate with costs of about 200 USD/kWh capacity at a size of 250-meter diameter.

READ MORE:

https://www.heindl-energy.com/technical-concept/

This is the principle.  Good find AG.  The difference in efficiency between going down into the ground versus going up is not going to be very significant.  For a big system, it's necessary because building any tower you could haul up that much mass with would be prohibitively expensive, not to mention not very safe.

I think more on the small scale for the individual or small community.  Big storage plants like this would be run by the Big Energy companies as the shift is made from FFs as a profit center for the elite.

In most cases, it would be impractical and too expensive to dig the big hole deep enough to fit your mass.  You could much more easily weld together a TeePee frame from steel pipe with a hexagonal patern of supports that could handle pulling up a Ton into the air 20" high.  Or you could split the difference and dig your hole 10' deep and have the tower lift the mass 10' more than that.  You also are not restricted to just one of these storage units, you could build several of them, one for each of your banks of PV Panels or Wind Turbines.  There are 100's of millions of Car & Truck alternators available you could reconfigure to work with your system.  All DIY stuff, no fancy chemical processing necessary.  The whole system can be tested out first on a very small scal in the backyard  with much less weight, probably 500 lbs would be a good size to start with.  Scale it up once you empirically determine how well it works.

The lifting weight can be just about anything reasonably Dense, Sandbags or 55 Gal barrels of water for instance.  Your mechanical transmission as I mentioned could come from any off-road bike designed for trail riding that has a really low gear.  Buy that on the used market cheap also.  You can even buy a wrecked one (many of those after any race) for pennies.  All the rest of the hardware available at your local Home Depot.

It would be interesting to see how big a system you would need for a renewable array the size of the one DB runs.  Time for a new project DB! 
RE



Leges         Sine    Moribus     Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

AGelbert

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14889
  • Location: Colchester, Vermont
    • Agelbert Truth AND Consequences
RE,
Three approaches come to mind at small scale.
1) Pumped micro hydro storage
2) Drag/roll trailer up/down a hill
3)Raised mass using a structure.

Most important point to understand is gravitational energy density is extremely low, 1 ton raised 100 ft only stores .076 kwhr.  A little over 25 ton raised 100 ft stores 1kwhr.  Building towers option 3 is expensive, building short towers less so.  Still at 10 ft of elevation difference you'd need to be moving 250 tons to get 1kwhr of storage.  Perhaps cement piers raising stone?  I think though it seems infeasible.  Moving up the list to #2 we could drag trailers up a hill and roll them down.  You'd need heavy hoist motor and cable at those mass amounts.  Thinking the winch is $1000 the cable $500 the trailer $1000 the controller and tie in $??  Maybe it could be done for <$3000   Option 1 is probably the most reasonable.  Each 225 gallons of water would store a kwhr over 100' of elevation.  The pumps and generator could be had for <$1000 the piping <$1000 and maybe a total system of <$3000.

However as cools as something like this is, its probably worth comparing to battery tech at this point.  That same 1 kwr storage can be had for like $400/kwhr and a tiny fraction of the space.

Leges         Sine    Moribus     Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

AGelbert

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14889
  • Location: Colchester, Vermont
    • Agelbert Truth AND Consequences
I'll take that as an attempt at peace-making and reciprocate.

When I bounce your own words (selected sentences) back at you, and in response you call me "full of s h i t" and other insults, I don't respond happily either and I don't think any other Diner would.  People that only know me through my writings (often in local newspapers) and then meet me face to face often comment that I am much nicer in person.  I take that as a compliment of my writing style, which is supposed to be in hard-edged newspaper style.

I have also been told I have a professorial style, giving little lectures to people on scientific subjects.  This is because I find the audience generally has a very poor grasp of scientific subjects and/or a very sloppy way of putting things when they need to be accurate.

For example, RE's energy storage system, as gravitational potential energy, is neatly expressed as:
E = m.g.h
where m is mass, h is height and g is the gravitational constant.
The units have to be converted to a consistent system, here the Metre-Kilogram-Second system giving an answer in Joules.

So lifting a tonne up a metre against earth's gravity, takes
Energy = (1,000 × 0.981 × 1) = 981 joules  = 981 watts for 1 second
  = 0.272 watts for 1 hour

which is not much, and explains why you need to do it on an unfeasibly BIG scale to store a useful amount of energy.


 ::)


RE,
Three approaches come to mind at small scale.
1) Pumped micro hydro storage
2) Drag/roll trailer up/down a hill
3)Raised mass using a structure.

Most important point to understand is gravitational energy density is extremely low, 1 ton raised 100 ft only stores .076 kwhr.  A little over 25 ton raised 100 ft stores 1kwhr.  Building towers option 3 is expensive, building short towers less so.  Still at 10 ft of elevation difference you'd need to be moving 250 tons to get 1kwhr of storage.  Perhaps cement piers raising stone?  I think though it seems infeasible.  Moving up the list to #2 we could drag trailers up a hill and roll them down.  You'd need heavy hoist motor and cable at those mass amounts.  Thinking the winch is $1000 the cable $500 the trailer $1000 the controller and tie in $??  Maybe it could be done for <$3000   Option 1 is probably the most reasonable.  Each 225 gallons of water would store a kwhr over 100' of elevation.  The pumps and generator could be had for <$1000 the piping <$1000 and maybe a total system of <$3000.

However as cools as something like this is, its probably worth comparing to battery tech at this point.  That same 1 kwr storage can be had for like $400/kwhr and a tiny fraction of the space.

Well, for the Test Protoype it really doesn't matter how much energy it will store and you can get back, it will scale up.

The next question is how much storage does the individual Prepper need here?  How many KwHours is really necessary in a typical situation using all low energy consuming electrical devices?

Based on your early numbers, I would go with a 25' Hole in the Ground (you and LD can have a months long Digging Competitiion) and a 25' Tower above that.  What would the weight be?  I would try a 20 long ConEx filled with Concrete as a starter.  This will weigh well over 40 Tons.  How many KwHrs do you get out of 40 Tons raised 50'?

You will of course need more than steel pipe for this tower.  It might be built from reeinforced concrete, or you could use steel I-Beams.  You'll need a heck of a winch to yank this load up, no matter how you gear it.  You'll also probably want to get your gearing off a wrecked big rig, that will keep those costs down.  Cable will be a significant cost as well, that will need to be some prety thick and heavy stuff too.

In terms of cost efficiency, right now the chemical storage system is cheaper, but you depend on many things to keep that system running in the post collapse world.  This system has more resilience.  So it's a trade off.  I'd estimate WAG $20K to have a system good enough to run a house at typcal energy usage in a farm community.

RE
[/size]

Okay Roamer, I'll check the link out. Thanks for the positive reply, RE.

As to Palloy and his claim that gravity systems for energy storage need to be "unfeasbly" huge, he, as usual, is stating a half truth.

For example, it is it is possible to operate ALL the lights in a house throughout the night with a gravity generator system. The problem with our modern thinking is that we want some system to DO IT ALL. That is totally unnecessary, but it helps the Palloys of this world claim that this or that "will never work".

Roamer, I'm glad you are here. since you are a mechanical engineer, I wish you would find the time to put Palloy in his proper place. The guy is an expert in sophistry and is fond of poo pooing absolutely anything that departs from the unsustainable energy status quo. He may believe he is "professorial", but he is actually routinely offensively pedantic. I got sick of arguing with him and just don't bother any more.

At any rate Roamer, thanks for your input. I hope all is well with you.
Leges         Sine    Moribus     Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

AGelbert

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14889
  • Location: Colchester, Vermont
    • Agelbert Truth AND Consequences
Eddie, The units I want to build will not feed a family or an individual, they will produce your salad year round basically with no  inputs and provide you a free refrigerator and water storage/capture.  It is a resilient hedge not an autonomous stand alone system, at least not for the first prototypes.  I think I can build the simplest no frills most cost effective version.  I agree too texas would take deep expensive geothermal. 

I actually agree with you on crowdfunding, I guess I am just curious.  I'd be building this thing yesterday if I could justify it economincally, but after losing my crypto gamblings and milk prices in the shitter kind of hard to motivate actually doing any of this. 

However I am very happy to see that http://www.sun-orbit.de/ are a company who have basically realized similar concepts.  If you were looking for a system maybe you could consider being there first american customer?

Leges         Sine    Moribus     Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

AGelbert

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14889
  • Location: Colchester, Vermont
    • Agelbert Truth AND Consequences
AG,
Check these german guys out http://www.sun-orbit.de/  They have pretty much realized all my best ideas on synergistic greenhouse energy systems.  They are all combined power solar thermal systems based on low speed high volume stirling engine systems.


Roamer: The link you gave me goes nowhere

This is what it shows (after translating it to English):


Quote
This new domain has been registered in the sales order.
Why is this page displayed?

This page was created automatically. It is deposited with each new domain and shows that the new domain is reachable.
Without this placeholder page, visitors would receive an error message. As a customer of united-domains, you can configure this domain in your domain portfolio online at any time (eg web redirects, e-mail settings, add web space, change DNS entries).

united-domains - the best addresses for the web

Register more domains cheaply

Preorder new domain extensions

imprint
© united-domains AG.  All rights reserved.

                ???                     


Leges         Sine    Moribus     Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

 

+-Recent Topics

End Times according to the Judeo Christian Bible by AGelbert
October 17, 2018, 11:00:52 pm

Global Warming is WITH US by AGelbert
October 17, 2018, 09:16:57 pm

Fossil Fuels: Degraded Democracy and Profit Over Planet Pollution by AGelbert
October 17, 2018, 05:56:33 pm

The Big Picture of Renewable Energy Growth by AGelbert
October 17, 2018, 05:43:54 pm

Hydrocarbon Crooks Evil Actions by AGelbert
October 17, 2018, 01:44:54 pm

Mechanisms of Prejudice: Hidden and Not Hidden by AGelbert
October 16, 2018, 06:46:06 pm

War Provocations and Peace Actions by AGelbert
October 16, 2018, 06:32:44 pm

Wind Power by AGelbert
October 16, 2018, 02:09:52 pm

Non-routine News by AGelbert
October 16, 2018, 12:37:49 pm

Money by AGelbert
October 15, 2018, 04:55:11 pm