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Author Topic: Ethanol  (Read 6067 times)

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Re: Ethanol
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2016, 10:51:56 pm »
It's a start, but NO, it is not acceptable because it is woefully incomplete. "Crop yield", for example, is one of those loaded terms that woefully FAILS in measuring adequate nutrition and is slanted to WEIGHT. I have posted, years ago now, about the FACT that, with chemical fertilizers, the "yields" went UP while the NUTRITIONAL VALUE of the crop WENT DOWN.

And AT NO TIME was the environmental COST of synthesizing the fertilizers and pesticides from hydrocarbon feed stock SUBTRACTED from those "yield" figures, to the JOY of the fossil fuel industry that claimed we OWED them for their (FAKE) "green revolution" of heavier, but less nutritious, crops.

Not taking sides in this argument, it is over my head, but just have to comment on Agelbert's utterly amazing postings and the facts he makes us aware of.

This is just one of the amazing rabbits he pulls out of his brainy cap.  A true font of knowledge and critical out of the box thinking on these matters.

His point of we being constantly brainwashed and bombarded by Bull **** from the Fossil Fuel crowd is one of validity however in my opinion, this is but one excellent example of their "Forked Tongues"

AG, You missed your calling in life, you would have been a Top Shelf professor.


Thank you, GO. I was a great flight instructor, aviation meteorology instructor and air traffic control teacher in the FAA. At least all my students said so.  ;D

I always did enjoy teaching. I feel the fossil fuels versus renewable energy is not really an energy or industrial civilization issue, like Palloy does. I feel it is an ethical issue. Perhaps that why both Palloy and I accuse each other of dancing around the nitty gritty and, as Palloy alleges, my "lack of focus".

I'm quite focused.      I am, at least at the moment, willing to forego the ethical stuff with Palloy. But he wants to reduce everything to a fixed quantity of energy density or ERoEI. He gave me a data dump of energy units per mass for different materials. He wants me to accept that, for example, steel or copper or neodymium rare earth, etc. in a long list of industrially mined, refined and marketed metals have a fixed amount of REQUIRED (and IMPOSSIBLE TO SUBSTITUTE WITH RENEWABLE ENERGY) fossil fuel input component AND a FIXED energy input.

His hypothesis is that the present is unsustainable so it must collapse. I agree the status quo is unsustainable but I do not agree it must collapse from lack of energy. I believe it WILL collapse from climate change if we do not transition to 100% clean energy.

Palloy believes that the main issue is lack of cheap fossil fuel energy, not climate change, and pulls out his stats and energy math to defend his position.

The figures of required energy inputs for metals are something I cannot agree with because a huge percentage of those metals that we need to maintain our civilization are no longer mined, but recycled from scrap. His figure will take the "full energy life cycle" that includes raw materials mining. That's slanted data, yet he claims I am not "focusing". 

Also, Amory Lovins, a scientist who certainly knows a thing or two about ERoEI and all things energy, has plainly stated that we CAN maintain our PRESENT level of industrial civilization with only 20% of the energy INPUTS we now wastefully apply. And all this simply by improving the efficiency with KNOWN scientific technology about turbulent flow in pipes, computer load balancing with renewable energy and, of course biofuels.  Palloy will scoff. but I think Amory is right.

to show you what I mean about I what I perceive you (incorrectly) feel about biofuels, I am posting a hit piece that ridicules, disdains derides and otherwise insults the intelligence of readers in general and Amory Lovins in particular.  :(     

Tell me if you can spot the disingenuous use of energy terms in this article. I suspect that you will agree with MR. Bryce's clever back door defense of fossil fuels. I will provide a rebuttal  to MR. Bryce's hit piece later. 

Biofuels Are a Bad Idea       ;)
8, 2014 8:03 AM EDT
By  Robert Bryce

SNIPPET of defamatory sniping and grossly exaggerated claims about ethanol (see: using CORN ethanol as the be-all-end-all feed stock) required energy and acreage.     


Supporters of biofuels claim that someday they will provide a significant share of energy in the U.S. Amory Lovins, the co-founder of the Rocky Mountain Institute, and his co-authors of "Reinventing Fire," for instance, argue that by 2050, the U.S. will get 23 percent of its total energy from "non-cropland biofuels."

This is ludicrous. To grow enough biomass to produce that much energy, the U.S. would need to set aside about 219 million acres of land, an area the size of Texas, New York and Ohio combined.

Biofuels, we have been repeatedly told, are the magic bullet, the energy-independence-punish-the-Arabs-anti-terror-better-than-standard-diesel-fuel miracle elixir. It isn't true. It's never been true.

« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 03:46:50 pm by AGelbert »
Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life. Pr. 13:12


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