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Author Topic: Electric Vehicles  (Read 9312 times)

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AGelbert

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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #480 on: November 30, 2018, 05:32:10 pm »
Had I been in that thing when the pickup truck that front ended me drove into oncoming traffic last week I'd have been killed.  As it is I'm uninjured.  Electronics batteries and motors are all available but somebody needs to do more than slap the components together to make a solution that works.  Three wheeled electric carts are nothing new.  This one is wrapped in a light plastic shell.  That plastic might shatter in Alaska temperatures.  I'd check into what it is made of before I got one.

A Trike Electric with knobby tires makes things a little better.  This one from Z-electric is only $7K.

I've been to the factory, very nice machines.  He has clients all over the world, including Mother Russia.  It gets cold there too.  I wouldn't take it on the roads currently, I would use the bike paths.

RE


Yep. Gotta pick your spots. Might be fine for local travel, but on a highway? Not likely.
I found myself parked beside a woman who had a Smart ForTwo car last weekend.


Smart ForTwo Passion Cabriolet

Really cute. I could not resist asking her about it. She laughed and was very gracious, said she gets that a lot. Said she loved riding it around town, and that it was a perfect commuting vehicle for in town trips. But that she would never take it on an out of town trip.

As AG noted about Contrary's wreck, when you're on the interstate and get rear ended by a drunk going over 100, you want to be wrapped in a steel cage.

True, but the solution to this inertia of weighty four wheeled (and up) vehicles making hamburger out of humans in light EVs is to restrict the heavy vehicles. The fact is that light vehicles do not wear out roads. SO, companion, cheaply made lanes EXCLUSIVELY limited to LIGHT vehicles is the way to go. Of course the car manufacturers will be dead set against this because they won't make as much money selling smaller, lighter, environmentally friendly, extremely economical vehicles. 👎

However, that is already happening in Germany and the Netherlands. 👍 It is being done.

It could be done here CHEAPLY. It would save humungous amounts of money in fuel not needed, road repairs not needed and pollution not spewed. 

Yeah, I know, that makes too much sense to ever be implemented in the "Rational" USA.
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AGelbert

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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #481 on: November 30, 2018, 06:35:00 pm »
Quote from: AG
However, that is already happening in Germany and the Netherlands. 👍 It is being done.

Then how do they move freight? The draft from 18 wheelers barrel-assing down the road like they own it is enough to knock a Smart car off the road.

There are two issues here that you are addressing, not just one. Assuming you have no problem with low weight bearing companion lanes being built next to every Interstate Highway in the USA, the main threat to the small EVs and motorcicles and EV or ICE trikes using these lanes is the drunk driver on an average 4 wheeled vehicle, not the 18 wheeler. Truck drivers, as RE will undoubtedly testify, have a much better track record for safety than the average American driver.

True, the 18 wheelers are still out there and if they stray into a light vehicle lane, they can squeeze or squash them like bugs. It is a matter of probabilities. To reduce the probability of heavy vehicles, such as 18 wheelers, splattering light vehicles all over the place, automatic driving software, now being tested in Colorado, Arizona and Califiornia, is what we need to lower the probabilty of freight moving vehicles killing humans in light vehicles to close to zero. As you know, since the 1940's (at least), even before all the interstates were built, the USA was crisscrossed with "Truck routes". These roads were, in theory, made to handle the weight of freight without breaking apart. Cars generally stayed off of them and ran on roads that were not as beefed up for freight loads.

All that changed when the Interstates were built. BUT, as RE will also testify, the 18 wheelers are well known for destroying Interstate roads from overloading. Yes, they have load checking stations, but a lot of cheating goes on.

The point is that the ability of a road to handle weight, not the frequency of accidents where a heavy vehicle destroys a smaller one, has dictated what roads were built and where people drive. I am saying that a light, cheap lane system, plus the autopilot features on many vehicles, including the really heavy ones carrying freight, is the best approach to saving people money while polluting less.

So, the freight carrying vehicle is not the greatest threat. The greatest threat is the crazy/drunk/asleep/coked up driver. Yes, that is true. The only way to deal with this threat cost effectively, without going full fascist on the driving public, is to put barriers along the companion lanes. The cost of all that infrastructure will be more than compensated for by the savings in fuel and lack of pollution from the massively expanded use of small EVs.

Friend, we are really, really out of time on these transportation issues. I understand where you are at. My wife is in exactly the same place. But frankly, I think we are doomed with our current transportation habits.

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AGelbert

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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #482 on: November 30, 2018, 07:04:13 pm »
You are right, RE. The T3-1 Micro  is a very nice machine. Expect the range to be goosed considerably as sales pick up. Battery technology is advancing in leaps and bounds. ✨ Even with present technology, it is child's play to double the range of this vehicle, simply because it is so light to begin with. 🌞

   


T3-1 Micro Quick Specs

Range at 25 mph -----------------------------45 miles (Base)
                                                                             57 miles (Lithium)
                                                                             

Top Speed ---------------------------------------40 mph

Battery Capacity -------------------------------- 4.1 Kwh (Base)
                                                                                6 Kwh (Lithium)

MSRP --------------------------------------------- $6,800 (Base)
                                                                               
 (Lithium)                                                                $9,690


Read more:

https://www.zelectricvehicle.com/t3-1-micro-enclosed-trike

It gets better range if you upgrade to the Li-I Batts.  But 45 miles is enough for me.  Downtown Palmer is only 4 miles away, downtown Wasilla 6.

RE


I noticed at the end of the video that they already have an option to double the range (extra battery just forward of the back seat) for those using the T3-1 Micro for deliveries. 💫 
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AGelbert

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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #483 on: November 30, 2018, 08:10:39 pm »
T3-1 Micro on the Road


SPECIFICATION AND DETAILS
 
The Micro has only hand controls to increase the number of people who can drive it. No foot usage required.

Seating for 2 -3 adults (including driver) Rear seating - 35 inch wide rear bench seat width.

Maximum payload   225 Kg, 496 lbs

Vehicle weight empty   with base silicate battery 390 Kg / 863 lbs

Gross Vehicle Weight (vehicle + load) 615 Kg / 1359 lbs.

Maximum rear cargo area weight capacity   194 Kg, 360 lbs

Rear cargo area size   1300 L x 900mm W / 35 inches L X 35 inches W

Overall vehicle dimensions 2380 X 1200 X 1585 mm

  Wheelbase   1620 mm

Wheel size 12 inch rear, 13 front

Tire size 135/70R12 rear, 130/60-13 front

► Minimum ground clearance   175 mm

► Motor Power 4 kw transaxle electric, 3 kw continuous (7 kw rated).

► Brakes Hydraulic Disc, hand control

► Mechanical parking brake on rear wheels. Additional hydraulic parking brakes on all wheels.

► Throttle   - Hand control

► Maximum speed 50 Km/h / 30 mph in Moped class legal configuration.

► Maximum speed 65 Km/h / 40 mph non Moped class

► Maximum speed 76 Km/h / 47 mph with optional lithium battery system

Battery

► Base system 72 volt nominal, 4.1 kwh peak capacity,silicate

֍ Optional system 72 volt nominal, peak capacity, 6 Kwh, lithium 60 ah cells

The silicate battery last 2-4 years in operation. That is one third of the lithium, but they are very low cost at only $575 at 2018 prices. They are also extremely easy to change in less than 1.5 hours. Using them allows a customer a lower cost of initial purchase, with a low cost maintenance event every 2 or 3 years.

Range

► 45 miles at 45 Kph/25 mph: Base system                         

► 57 miles, at 45 Kph/25 mph:  Optional lithium system

► Battery charger included. Charging time of 4.5 hours on 120 volt normal wall outlet power. Options for 220 volt charging.

► Special variants are available for disabled people allowing the seat to move much further back for entry and custom modifications as customers may desire.

SAFETY

► High back front seat

► seat belts on all seats

► disc brakes on all wheels

► extremely bright lights all around for see and be seen safety

► Battery mass all forward of the rear axle and centrally distributed for vehicle balance

► With the battery mass at or below the axle height, and the motor mass behind the rear axle, the weight does not greatly transfer forward in hard braking. The resulting CG also helps to keep the trike planted and not feel tippy.

https://www.zelectricvehicle.com/t3-1-micro-enclosed-trike
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AGelbert

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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #484 on: November 30, 2018, 08:24:33 pm »
 
⚡ T3-5D

The T3-5D is the continuing extension of our T3 line of enclosed trike vehicles. From listening to feedback, we added extra doors and leg room for the rear passengers as well as a rear cargo door and fold flat rear seats. We made it go faster and farther and kept it all in a small frame with full hand controls for accessibility. Everything great about the T3-1 and more. 

The T3-5 Door gets its name from its 4 side doors an its rear opening cargo door.  With its fold flat rear seats, this little vehicle can haul an impressive amount.  The rear cargo door is 39.4 inches wide and 37.8 inches high.
When the metal floor is folded flat, the area is 39.4 wide X 43 inches long.

More Info:


https://www.zelectricvehicle.com/t3-5d-trike
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AGelbert

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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #485 on: December 01, 2018, 01:24:47 pm »
Had I been in that thing when the pickup truck that front ended me drove into oncoming traffic last week I'd have been killed.  As it is I'm uninjured.  Electronics batteries and motors are all available but somebody needs to do more than slap the components together to make a solution that works.  Three wheeled electric carts are nothing new.  This one is wrapped in a light plastic shell.  That plastic might shatter in Alaska temperatures.  I'd check into what it is made of before I got one.

I've been to the factory, very nice machines.  He has clients all over the world, including Mother Russia.  It gets cold there too.  I wouldn't take it on the roads currently, I would use the bike paths.

RE


Yep. Gotta pick your spots. Might be fine for local travel, but on a highway? Not likely.
I found myself parked beside a woman who had a Smart ForTwo car last weekend. Really cute. I could not resist asking her about it. She laughed and was very gracious, said she gets that a lot. Said she loved riding it around town, and that it was a perfect commuting vehicle for in town trips. But that she would never take it on an out of town trip.

As AG noted about Contrary's wreck, when you're on the interstate and get rear ended by a drunk going over 100, you want to be wrapped in a steel cage.


I may have come off as negative but I'm making an observation.  Being negative is not my intent.  First look at that wheel.  That wheel is available as part of an electronic drive train that you can get from China on Ali-Baba.  All the separate components are available on the Chinese market at good prices.  I don't say the components themselves are good or bad.  Their quality actually improves every year.  This whole e-scooter market phenomena in all its forms has happened because of Chinese lithium battery technology.  I actually like it and it is not negative to just see it for what it is.  Understanding how all the kit parts work together allows me to understand the limitations and capabilities.

As good as the plastic shell may be this is still somebodies tinker toy.  A collection of parts.  Remember, I'm building one too,  My bike is the same technology.  I got some battery packs yesterday.  I almost have as many batteries as I need.  Next I mount them.  I'll be breaking open a pack from some kind of medical equipment today and it may have 15 batteries.  If they are all good I'm almost to my goal.


Another of my wheels.  I have three.  You can read the milli-amphour capacity of some of my tested and charged cells on the table.

Nice work! I agree that small EVs are, of course, a collection of parts. However, I find the term "tinker toy" to be inappropriately demeaning of a very useful vehicle. Yes, it may be overpriced from your engineering knowledge base standpoint. But, most people do not build their own vehicles, no matter how much they could save by building them. So, I think these small EVs, safety issues and all, will have a greater and greater market share of privately owned vehicles as time goes by.

Here's a slightly bigger model EV from the Z-Electric Micro folks. I like it because you can put a LOT of groceries in the back.

 
⚡ T3-5D

The T3-5D is the continuing extension of our T3 line of enclosed trike vehicles. From listening to feedback, we added extra doors and leg room for the rear passengers as well as a rear cargo door and fold flat rear seats. We made it go faster and farther and kept it all in a small frame with full hand controls for accessibility. Everything great about the T3-1 and more. 

Quick Specs

Top Speed ------------------40 mphwith lead battery                                     
                                       47 mph with lithium

Range at 30 mph -----------58 miles 68 ah battery                    70 miles with 80 ah battery
                                                                                           100 miles with lithium 100 ah battery

Continuous Power ---------3000 watts

Battery Type ----------------Lead Silicate in 68 or 80 ah
                                                 Lithium in 100 ah

MSRP ------------------------$7,261with 68 ah battery                        $8,178 with 80 ah battery   
                                                                                                   $10,990 with lithium battery


The T3-5 Door gets its name from its 4 side doors an its rear opening cargo door.  With its fold flat rear seats, this little vehicle can haul an impressive amount.  The rear cargo door is 39.4 inches wide and 37.8 inches high. When the metal floor is folded flat, the area is 39.4 wide X 43 inches long.



More Info:


https://www.zelectricvehicle.com/t3-5d-trike

   
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AGelbert

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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #486 on: December 03, 2018, 12:23:54 pm »
INSIDEEVs


The Death Of The Plug-In Hybrid Is Inevitable

December 2, 2018

BY MARK KANE
Plug-in hybrids and hybrids are both doomed?

According to a recent Bloomberg article, we are entering a stage of the final 20 years of high diversity of alternative powertrains. In the end, only all-electric cars will survive. The hybrids and plug-in hybrids are expected to die by 2040.

Quote
“With Tesla ⚡ fever running high, middle-ground vehicles are becoming irrelevant.”

Well, that’s more or less right as hybrids and plug-in hybrids were always considered a middle solution to full EVs until all-electric becomes more affordable with longer range.

We already see that most plug-in car sales are all-electric and most best-selling models are electric (China, U.S., globally). In the U.S., BEVs took over PHEVs by a 3:1 ratio in Q3 and soon are expected to eat into conventional hybrids too. Perhaps electrics already are.

All-electric cars are getting more affordable, offer longer range, have charging times improved, infrastructure has proliferated, design and features are compelling while acceleration becomes best-in-class. Purchase of BEV is also perceived as a bigger social statement than hybrids.

One of the biggest advantages of BEVs is their simplicity in terms of service, compared to modern ICE, which are very complex.

Quote
“A full ⚡ electric is a much more elegant solution,” said Gil Tal, director of the Plug-in Hybrid and Electric Vehicle Research Center at the University of California, Davis. “It’s very simple to build and very low maintenance.” In retrospect, he contends, plug-in hybrids “are just the training wheels” in the industry’s preparation for electric cars.”

Currently, many manufacturers plan to introduce a lot more all-electric models than hybrid/plug-in hybrid models. In the U.S., the Chevrolet Volt will come to an end in 2019.

Quote
“The death of the hybrid, while seemingly inevitable, may be long and slow. A spike in gas prices during the next few years may even draw it out. “I can see them having a role until 2040,” Tal said. “But the problem will always be [that] it’s a more expensive solution, having two drivetrains.

On the other hand, PHEVs still might be needed to convince petrol heads 🐷 that electric ⚡ drive works and to familiarize them with the tech. But yes, eventually PHEVs will die off. As the title states…it’s inevitable.

Source: Bloomberg

https://insideevs.com/death-of-plug-in-hybrid-inevitable/
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AGelbert

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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #487 on: December 03, 2018, 01:03:33 pm »
INSIDEEVs

December 3, 2018

Agelbert NOTE: The driver knows how to drive in snow but deliberately did all the wrong, dumb driving things, when driving in snow up and down hills, in order to test the Tesla Model 3 performance.

The comments are educational and instructive. 👍 I am experienced in driving in HEAVY ❄❄❄ snow conditions. What they say about tires being of prime importance is correct. However, AWD outperforms even the best winter tires in severe icy conditions.

AWD is better than FWD. FWD is better than RWD. The Subaru Forester, because of its AWD X-Mode electronics, is the best ICE vehicle out there for snow and ice driving conditions. I've seen videos of a Forester going throgh two feet deep mud as well. In those videos, ALL the other FWD and AWD vehicles got stuck.

That said, electronics on EVs are more time responsive in controlling the wheels than the best Gas Guzzler AWD electronics out there. As to the auto-wipers, I agree that they suck.

Tesla  ⚡ Model 3 RWD :P Versus An Icy Hill: Video


Article with above video:

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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #488 on: December 03, 2018, 02:00:38 pm »
INSIDEEVs

How The EPA Rates Electric ⚡ Cars: Range, Efficiency & More

Model 3 EPA range and MPGe numbers

DEC 2 2018

BY JIM GORZELANY

IT’S ALL ABOUT RANGE, KWH/100 MI, AND MPGE.

As with conventionally powered models, electric vehicles are rated for their energy efficiency – and in this case their operating range on a charge – by the Environmental Protection Agency. If you’re already an EV owner, you probably have noticed that your power consumption and/or range doesn’t always jibe with its official ratings. As automakers usually say in ads that reference a vehicle’s fuel economy, “your mileage may vary.”

A big reason for this is the manner in which vehicles are tested. Contrary to what you might expect, they’re not driven on the open road. Rather, a vehicle’s energy consumption is determined in a laboratory using a standardized procedure that’s mandated by federal law.

TEST PROCEDURES 👨‍🔬

Each vehicle tested is “driven” on a device called a dynamometer. Think of it as a treadmill for cars. While the engine and transmission drive the wheels, the vehicle never moves, just the rollers upon which the wheels are placed.

A professional driver runs the vehicle through multiple standardized driving schedules to simulate city and highway motoring. The basic city-driving program replicates a rush-hour stop-and-go driving experience with frequent idling. The highway circuit is designed to emulate rural and interstate freeway driving at higher speeds, without making any stops.

An electric vehicle is tested after being parked overnight, and with the battery fully charged. It’s then operated through successive city or highway driving cycles until the battery becomes depleted. It’s then brought back to a full charge. A technician determines the vehicle’s energy consumption by dividing the kilowatt-hours of energy needed to replenish the battery by the number of miles driven. The latter is also used to determine an EV’s estimated operating range on a charge.

To help consumers compare the energy consumption of electric cars with those that run on fossil fuel, the EPA created a miles-per-gallon equivalent measurement, called “MPGe.” This is calculated based on a conversion factor of 33.705 kilowatt-hours of electricity equaling one gallon of gasoline.

For 2018, the EPA’s most energy-efficient EV is the Hyundai Ioniq Electric, with a rating of 150 MPGe in city driving and 122 on the highway. The next-highest 2018 models are the Tesla Model 3 Long Range at 136/123 MPGe, the Chevrolet Bolt EV at 128/110 MPGe, and the Volkswagen e-Golf at 126/111 MPGe.

FUDGE FACTORS 👀

Unfortunately, there are elements inherent in the EPA’s testing procedures that tend to skew the ratings. For starters, vehicles are tested without a full load of passengers, cargo and options aboard. All else being equal, the heavier a vehicle’s rolling weight, the more energy is needed to reach and maintain a given speed.

Also, the tests are conducted indoors at room temperature. An electric car’s range tends to suffer when subjected to extremely cold or hot weather. This is both because of the adverse effects of high and low temperatures on a battery’s charge, and the drain caused by operating the heater and air conditioning.

What’s more, a given motorist’s driving habits can also affect an EV’s energy consumption. Lead-footed acceleration and driving at higher speeds will tend to drain the battery faster than will maintaining a smooth and steady pace. Driving on under-inflated tires will also cost an EV owner additional kilowatt-hours of electricity.

READING AN EV’S ‘FUEL ECONOMY’ STICKER 🧐

The federal government requires automakers to include information on a vehicle’s energy consumption, along with pricing and other information on the so-called “Monroney” sticker that’s posted on every new light-duty vehicle sold in the U.S. It’s named for Almer Stillwell “Mike” Monroney, a U.S. Senator from Oklahoma who sponsored the Automobile Disclosure Act of 1958 that mandated the use of price stickers.

In the case of electric vehicles, the Monroney sticker prominently displays the MPGe estimates for city, highway and combined city/highway driving. The latter assumes 55 percent city driving and 45 percent on the highway. The sticker also shows the number of kilowatt-hours of electricity that’s needed to run the vehicle for 100 miles (this is expressed as kWh/100 mi). The EPA says this measurement is actually more meaningful when comparing costs and energy consumption between EVs than the MPGe rating.

The sticker also notes, on average, how many miles the vehicle can operate on a charge, and how long it takes to fully replenish a discharged battery using a 240-volt (Level 2) charger. You can expect the time to typically double when using a standard household outlet.

The window sticker further notes the energy consumption range for other models in the vehicle’s size class. You’ll also find the average annual cost to keep the car or truck running, based on 15,000 miles driven at a predetermined price per kilowatt-hour for electricity. It also shows how much more or less that amount is compared to the average vehicle over a five-year ownership period. These numbers will of course, differ for a given driver depending on local energy rates.

The sticker also provides ratings on a 1-10 basis for a vehicle’s smog-related tailpipe emissions and greenhouse gas emissions. Since full electric vehicles produce neither of these they automatically receive a rating of 10.

You’ll also find a “QR” code that can be scanned by a smartphone and takes users to a website where they can enter information about their commutes and driving habits to get a better estimate of their energy consumption and costs.

The above information can also be found on the EPA’s fueleconomy.gov website for easy comparison among competing models, and it’s available for all current and past plug-in and conventionally powered vehicles.

Be sure to check out other helpful information on electric vehicles here on MYEV.com, which is also the Internet’s prime – and free – marketplace for buying and selling EVs.

Source: MYEV.com

https://insideevs.com/how-epa-rates-electric-cars-range-efficiency/
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AGelbert

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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #489 on: December 03, 2018, 02:45:12 pm »
My wife has ended up with the second Volt I bought last summer. So far I think the onboard computer is saying the hybrid's gas consumption amounts to 169 MPG. She is driving it for her daly commute, in fairly heavy traffic most of the time.

The old Volt (with just over 30 miles of range in most weather) never did better than about 100 MPG. That extra 20 miles of battery range has made the Volt from a good car into a great car, for people who still need a car that can run on gas, which is most people who do a lot of driving. The decision Chevy made to axe the Volt really breaks my heart, and we've discussed buying another before they're all gone.

I'm looking forward to the all electric cars, from a standpoint of reducing carbon, but i have my doubts they'll ever build  a car that will equal the Volt of today.


The Volt is a great car. The GM decision to axe the car caused me to be so angry I could spit. This is what I posted at Cleantechnica forum on that issue:

To GM's plan to stop building the Volt, I will let Obi Wan say it ALL:



RIP: GM Will Close 5 Assembly Plants In North America, Eliminate 15,000 Jobs, & Cease Production Of Chevy Volt
Autonomous Vehicles The mournful cry from Detroit that "Nobody wants to buy an electric car" is partially correct. Relatively few cons…

 cleantechnica.com
120 Comments

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/11/26/rip-gm-will-close-5-assembly-plants-in-north-america-eliminate-15000-jobs-cease-production-of-chevy-volt/





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AGelbert

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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #490 on: December 03, 2018, 07:13:49 pm »
There may be environmental reasons GM axed the volt/bolt ? EV.

Disposing of toxins used in production may be cheaper to have Izusu (GM's Asian Partner) do the duty work.

It's a real bag of snakes with these wind up models. I think Audi has the right answer with H-Tron EV's. Hydrogen fuel cells.

A new sport I'm interested in following is the Formula E racing.

Loads of new tech used in these rigs.



   

Az, you can NOT talk about the "pollution" involved with manufacturing EVs and, simultaneously ;), IGNORE the MUCH, MUCH, GREATER MASSIVE POLLUTION RESULTING FROM MANUFACTURING INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE POWERED CRAPMOBILES.  

GM's decision to stop making the Volt has, IMHO, absolutely everything to do with Hydrocarbon Hellspawn SKULLDUGGERY funded by the Koch Brothers, PERIOD, FULL STOP. They've been AT THIS LATEST SKULLDUGGERY for a couple of YEARS (at least).

Jun. 27th 2017 1:10 pm ET

By Fred Lambert @FredericLambert


If you cannot wrap your brain around that bit of in-your-face REALITY, then, uh, see below:

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Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

AGelbert

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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #491 on: December 03, 2018, 07:17:19 pm »
My wife has ended up with the second Volt I bought last summer. So far I think the onboard computer is saying the hybrid's gas consumption amounts to 169 MPG. She is driving it for her daly commute, in fairly heavy traffic most of the time.

The old Volt (with just over 30 miles of range in most weather) never did better than about 100 MPG. That extra 20 miles of battery range has made the Volt from a good car into a great car, for people who still need a car that can run on gas, which is most people who do a lot of driving. The decision Chevy made to axe the Volt really breaks my heart, and we've discussed buying another before they're all gone.

I'm looking forward to the all electric cars, from a standpoint of reducing carbon, but i have my doubts they'll ever build  a car that will equal the Volt of today.


The Volt is a great car. The GM decision to axe the car caused me to be so angry I could spit. This is what I posted at Cleantechnica forum on that issue:

To GM's plan to stop building the Volt, I will let Obi Wan say it ALL:[/size]



RIP: GM Will Close 5 Assembly Plants In North America, Eliminate 15,000 Jobs, & Cease Production Of Chevy Volt
Autonomous Vehicles The mournful cry from Detroit that "Nobody wants to buy an electric car" is partially correct. Relatively few cons…

 cleantechnica.com
120 Comments

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/11/26/rip-gm-will-close-5-assembly-plants-in-north-america-eliminate-15000-jobs-cease-production-of-chevy-volt/

I can see the justification. The specs for the volt were laid down quite some time ago. The bolt is proving very popular. battery capacity has increased as well as peoples acceptance of all electric since they designed the volt.  Its neither fish nor fowl having the maintenance requirements of two cars. If you want gas backup the hybrid model is a more efficient cheaper way to get it, if you want the electric features the all electric is more efficient... The engine charges battery, full size electric runs car method has advantages but the increased cost of it didn't work out and its appeal was limited. I hope they use the capacity to build more full electrics like they say they are going to... We shall see. And again the bolt is awesome I wish it worked better for my climate and circumstances...

Yes, we shall see. But, while we are waiting to see, I suggest you look at the total number of different vehicles GM makes, all with internal combustion engines. Based on your logic, it was "uneconomical" to make so many different models with basically the same type of engine and drive train. I don't think so.

As to the sales of the Volt, it was selling MUCH BETTER than  several other models that GM will CONTINUE to make, so your argument that the Volt wasn't "competitive" with the Bolt is not reality based. Both the Bolt and the Volt ARE selling quite well, thank you very much.

The logic that DOES APPLY in this situation is that the Koch Brothers 🦕🦖 are in this up to their fossil fuel defending necks . I posted a video from Tthe Real News here that evidences that the ending Volt production does not have SQUAT to do with shutting all the plants that GM wants to shut down, as an influential member of the GM workforce in those plants made quite clear in the video (see below).


The happy talk from GM that is, in so many clever and duplictous words, formulated to lull us into believing the BULLSHIT that they "plan to build lots of EVs in the future" is the typical sucker play the fossil fuelers 🐉🦕🦖 are (IN)FAMOUS for. First they make excuses about not making the EV NOW because, uh, "EVs aren't ready for prime time" but they are gonna make lots of them soon, real soon. 

A decade goes by and then they say, uh, well, we decided not to make them because, uh, "they weren't competitive, they were too costly, they were inefficient, etc." while they continued to go out of their way (see the first EV that GM made back in the 1990's) to make sure EV availability is as limited as possible. THAT is the PLAN , although they will, of course, never admit it.

The NEXT STEP in the PLAN for ALL subsidies for EVs and PHEVs to DISAPPEAR in the good old USA .  They DID SOMETHING SIMILAR with electric trolleys in cities all over the USA from the early 20th century too around 1945. They bought them all up and proceeded to  NOT maintain them, screw up the schedules, etc. After they were all replaced by horrendously polluting diesel powered busses, the fossil fuelers claimed that electric trolleys were "not competitive".

This is just another HYDROCARBON HELLSPAWN 🦕🦖 SCAM to kill EVs in favor of the CRAPmobiles that run on Fossil fuels, PERIOD, FULL STOP.  

All that said, GM will rue the day they made this incredibly stupid decision. China (and India, but especially China) already is the vehicle manufacturing powerhouse of the planet. China is going FULLY into EVs. They will destroy GM, or absorb them. It's OVER for the Crapmobiles. 
Leges         Sine    Moribus     Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

AGelbert

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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #492 on: December 03, 2018, 07:19:23 pm »
My wife has ended up with the second Volt I bought last summer. So far I think the onboard computer is saying the hybrid's gas consumption amounts to 169 MPG. She is driving it for her daly commute, in fairly heavy traffic most of the time.

The old Volt (with just over 30 miles of range in most weather) never did better than about 100 MPG. That extra 20 miles of battery range has made the Volt from a good car into a great car, for people who still need a car that can run on gas, which is most people who do a lot of driving. The decision Chevy made to axe the Volt really breaks my heart, and we've discussed buying another before they're all gone.

I'm looking forward to the all electric cars, from a standpoint of reducing carbon, but i have my doubts they'll ever build  a car that will equal the Volt of today.

The Volt is a great car. The GM decision to axe the car caused me to be so angry I could spit. This is what I posted at Cleantechnica forum on that issue:

To GM's plan to stop building the Volt, I will let Obi Wan say it ALL:



RIP: GM Will Close 5 Assembly Plants In North America, Eliminate 15,000 Jobs, & Cease Production Of Chevy Volt
Autonomous Vehicles The mournful cry from Detroit that "Nobody wants to buy an electric car" is partially correct. Relatively few cons…

 cleantechnica.com
120 Comments

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/11/26/rip-gm-will-close-5-assembly-plants-in-north-america-eliminate-15000-jobs-cease-production-of-chevy-volt/
I can see the justification. The specs for the volt were laid down quite some time ago. The bolt is proving very popular. battery capacity has increased as well as peoples acceptance of all electric since they designed the volt.  Its neither fish nor fowl having the maintenance requirements of two cars. If you want gas backup the hybrid model is a more efficient cheaper way to get it, if you want the electric features the all electric is more efficient... The engine charges battery, full size electric runs car method has advantages but the increased cost of it didn't work out and its appeal was limited. I hope they use the capacity to build more full electrics like they say they are going to... We shall see. And again the bolt is awesome I wish it worked better for my climate and circumstances...

I disagree on a few of your points. for one thing, the maintenance on the Volt is quite low. Oil changes once a year. Maintenance on the electric motor pretty much zero, in my experience. Batteries last something close to the usable life of the car. At least 200K, maybe more.

Rather than "neither fish nor fowl", I'd call it the best of both worlds. Even a Tesla is a carriage without a horse, if the batteries are dead. For people who drive longer distances, this is a real problem. And fast chargers are not just on every street corner either.

And the the Volt was never a true serial hybrid anyway. It has three modes, one of which does (minimally) charge the batteries from the gas engine, like most other hybrids. I had a Prius, which I gave to my daughter. It was a great car, but the Volt is a better car. That's about the best recommendation I can give. Better than a Prius, in my view. That's real praise.

And I'm not just saying that because I bought one. I might well buy a Bolt too, at some point.


Well said. See my comment for why I disagree with Nearingsfault.
Leges         Sine    Moribus     Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

AGelbert

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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #493 on: December 03, 2018, 07:28:48 pm »
I disagree on a few of your points. for one thing, the maintenance on the Volt is quite low. Oil changes once a year. Maintenance on the electric motor pretty much zero, in my experience. Batteries last something close to the usable life of the car. At least 200K, maybe more.

Rather than "neither fish nor fowl", I'd call it the best of both worlds. Even a Tesla is a carriage without a horse, if the batteries are dead. For people who drive longer distances, this is a real problem. And fast chargers are not just on every street corner either.

And the the Volt was never a true serial hybrid anyway. It has three modes, one of which does (minimally) charge the batteries from the gas engine, like most other hybrids. I had a Prius, which I gave to my daughter. It was a great car, but the Volt is a better car. That's about the best recommendation I can give. Better than a Prius, in my view. That's real praise.

And I'm not just saying that because I bought one. I might well buy a Bolt too, at some point.

So Eddie here is a good question for you. How many people can understand and quantify the difference between a hybrid and the volt...  I think gm is abandoning car production in north America because they make much higher profit margins pushing trucks and crossovers with lots of bells and whistles in this market. I do stand corrected the sales numbers for the volt are good I looked them up. How many years until electric subsidies run out? Could that be a reason? Ag I broke my own rule and responded on your thread... for that I am sorry...

Good. See that you don't break your "rule" again. It's over for the fosssil fuel powered CRAPmobiles, whether you want to believe that or not. GM and Ford are dead corporations walking unless they get their heads out of their CRAPmobile favoring asses. If they had spent a TENTH of the money they spend on advertising CRAPmobiles over the last TWO decades on advertising EVs and PHEVs, those vehicles would now DOMINATE the market. Yeah, I know, you can't wrap tour head around that "concept". Fine, keep supporting your BC pipeline and tar sands CRAP because, uh, "that is profitable", NOT!

Leges         Sine    Moribus     Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

AGelbert

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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #494 on: December 05, 2018, 12:56:17 pm »
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BREAKING: Tesla Passes Daimler In Market Cap — Volkswagen Next?

December 4th, 2018 by Zachary Shahan

Another one bites the dust.  

Some people don’t understand it. How can a little upstart like Tesla be worth more than almost every other automaker in the world? Of course, being that I have an outsized investment in Tesla [TSLA] compared to other stocks, I have a fairly strong opinion on this topic. In summary, I would say that all is right in the world of auto stocks, so I’ll try to explain how this makes sense.

First of all, though, the important thing to remember is that people managing hundreds of billions of dollars have determined that auto company valuations should be where they are right now. The Tesla stock price does not rise and fall primarily on the mood of a few hundred fickle retail investors. The bulk of the stock is owned by gigantic institutional investors. In other words, the misleading narrative that the Tesla stock price is high because of näive, young, Kool Aid–drinking retail investors should be thrown in the trash.

Update: German automaker market caps above were off initially and have been corrected. Also, Toyota’s market cap is far higher than any of the other automaker’s, but it is not included here.

Another thing to consider is that it’s 2018, not 1918. Car companies aren’t just car companies. Conventional car companies have large engine factories on the books, and gasoline/diesel engines are on the way out.

Batteries are key to the electric ⚡ future, and it seems that Tesla is far in the lead with significant, fruitful investments in battery factories, useful IP, and overall battery expertise.

Software is also key to the future of cars, and Tesla again appears to have a leadership position (a big one) when it comes to sophisticated vehicle software.

Every carmaker has its hands in our ride-hailing, carsharing future — which eventually means robotaxis. Some people think GM has the most promise in this regard , some think it’s Volkswagen 🤔, but many certainly think it’s Tesla. That is a gigantic market and the leaders will be making a few fortunes, which means they’ll be worth a few fortunes. Uber was worth $72 billion in February and an IPO might put it at $120 billion. Supposedly, Tesla’s potential “Network” for self-driving carsharing isn’t valued by most Wall Street 😈 analysts. If it really isn’t included much in Tesla’s market cap, there’s plenty of room for further growth in the coming years. If it is included a bit in valuations, that further helps to explain why Tesla is already above Daimler, BMW, GM, Ford, Fiat Chrysler Automobiles, Honda, Nissan, Renault, Hyunda, Kia, and others in market cap.

One more thing to consider briefly is that Tesla is hot, hot, hot among young people. Kids love Tesla, teenagers love Tesla, and young adults love Tesla. This brand strength among future car buyers will be powerful starting in 5–10 years. Stay tuned for that. 🧐

Back to today, the market valuations of Tesla, Daimler, and a few other top players at the close of market today were (in billions):

Tesla — $63.18

Daimler — $62.89

BMW — $55.03

Ford — $37.25

GM — $52.22

FCA — $26.76

Volkswagen — $82.44

Toyota — $171.1


Related: World’s 10 Biggest Automakers & Their EV Plans

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/29/worlds-10-biggest-automakers-their-ev-plans/
Leges         Sine    Moribus     Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

 

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