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Author Topic: Electric Vehicles  (Read 9096 times)

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AGelbert

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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2014, 08:55:08 pm »

BYD's green bus wins award
Updated: 2014-09-15 03:30
By ZHANG FAN in Sao Paulo(China Daily Latin America)
   
Chinese automotive enterprises BYD Co Ltd was recently awarded the InovaCidade Award from Brazil's Smart City Business Institute for the company's electric transit buses. The award praises BYD achievements in technical innovation and for producing more environmentally-friendly products.
"It is very meaningful for BYD because it shows that Brazilian society values our technology. It is the first time for us to win the award in South America," said Tyler Li, general manager of BYD Brazil at the Smart City Business Congress & Expo America in Sao Paulo on Sept 4.

Li said Brazilians used to think of Chinese products as cheap and of poor quality, but winning this award shows that this impression is changing.

"We want to prove to Brazilian customers that our products have major technical advantages and electric buses will be a trend for the development of public transportation," he added.
Smart City Business Institute, covering South America, is an influential organization focused on innovation and urban development. Other international brands such as Dell and Microsoft also won the prize.

BYD's electric buses were also named as the Low Carbon Heavy Duty Vehicle of the Year in the UK. The judging panel said BYD's pure electric buses "have demonstrated impressive carbon savings through their electric power train systems."

BYD entered the Brazilian market last November and its electric transit buses have been tested in about 20 cities including Sao Paulo, Rio de Janeiro and Salvador. Currently there are two electric buses in trail service in Brasilia and Campinas.

The buses, according to the data from the company, can reduce operating costs by up to 81 percent compared with petrol-driven vehicles, which can greatly benefit bus operators and also enable more Brazilian cities to improve their public transportation systems.

"As the price of energy is more stable than the price of diesel, the electric bus has shown that it is possible to reduce pollution as well as operating costs of bus systems   , which is consistent with the civic demand for improvements in public transportation without raising fares," said Adalberto Maluf , marketing director of BYD.

The Shenzhen-based company launched its first Brazilian factory this August in Campinas, an industrial city near Sao Paulo, to produce the world's only long-range electric transit bus.
The 30,000-square-meter factory will be BYD's production base in Latin America after it starts operations in 2015. The project will absorb $91 million in investment from BYD over the next three to five years.

BYD is currently the world's largest producer of rechargeable batteries with products in Europe and North and Central America.
   



Before exploring international markets, 780 of BYD's electric buses have been in service in Shenzhen since 2011.


Besides BYD, BMW, one of the world's largest automobile, motorcycle and engine manufacturing companies, also eyes Brazil as a potential market. BMW just released its first family model i3 in Brazil, available in eight cities including Sao Paulo, Rio de Janeiro and Brasilia.
fanzhang@chinadailyusa.com

http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2014-09/15/content_18596206.htm
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AGelbert

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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2014, 02:46:10 pm »
K-Dog posts at the Doomstead Diner. He is an engineer and he is an honest, reality based, do the math asset to humanity. 



You can run a car on batteries, you'll have a lot tougher time running a Caterpillar Back Hoe on them.  Also tougher to run a Big Rig yanking around 40 Tons of Paper or Beer with a battery powered tractor.  Not sure what the size and weight would be for a battery pack even Li-I that could deliver the equivalent of a 600 HP Cummins Diesel, but I am quite sure it is pretty enormous and unwieldy, not to mention expensive.

Then you got the issue of moving enough electrons over an aging grid to charge up such vehicles regularly.  It's simply not gonna happen.


Without calculating it out I'll throw out about two tons of Li-ion batteries to deliver 600 HP equivalent.  There really is not a right answer since one twenty pound battery could deliver  600 HP but it would be drained in thirty seconds.  Being able to drive fifty feet before a new charge is needed is not going to cut it.  One issue in making a correct calculation is that electronic and gas engines are specified in different ways.  The 600 HP is maximum peak power but a 600 HP electric motor can put out 600 HP all day long without 'redlining'.

I would not presume that electric equivalents could replace all ICE engines.  That would be impossible and using my Jevon's Paradox in reverse argument demonstrates that very fact.  My argument falls apart  if the very real differences between electric and Ice alternatives are not considered.

Regarding the electric grid.  It works or it does not.  Wires do not start carrying half their old current capacities as they age.  They conduct at rated current capacity until they break or fall to the ground.  The maintenance of the electric grid is an issue that is to be concerned about for sure.  I do not deny it but the 'electric grid is falling apart' meme is bullshit.  Advanced by some who want to sell their own version of doomer **** and fear this kind of doomer would also say we can't have electric generators without rare earth metals which china can cut the supply of at any time.  I say this to one of them.

Really dude come on.  Using steel with the right silicon content we can make electromagnets with a greater magnetic field density than rare earth magnets can provide.  We have had the technology to do so and have done so for a hundred years.  Wind powered generators can be built with 1920s technology which are plenty efficient and powerful enough to substitute for modern equivalents.  Some antique collectors even like to find old electric fans from that era.  An electric fan or an electric wind generator, different but not by much.

Then you got the issue of moving enough electrons over an aging grid to charge up such vehicles regularly.  It's simply not gonna happen.

We agree it is not going to happen.  But perhaps for different reasons.  Technically it is possible but our society is incapable of doing the logistic planning necessary to make it happen.  Human nature not technical reasons will cause our grid to fall apart.  As I said, a significant number of EVs could be added to the existing grid without any changes.  Wire does not wear out and loose current carrying capacity.  If everybody went EV the grid would have to be enlarged.  Your average liberetard would say 'the market' can take care of that.  Yeah, in their dreams.  The grid needs work yes, and my house needs painting.  But neither will fall apart tomorrow.

We can argue all day about the glass being half full or half empty but we agree the glass is half of something.  Our bane are those who insist the glass is full or all the way empty without even looking at the glass just because they want to believe that way.



@jdwheeler42  Yes, trains have the best efficiency of all transportation types.  But not the old smoke billowing steam kind of choo- choos.  They were extremely inefficient.
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AGelbert

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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2014, 02:47:11 pm »

The loss rate in converting heat energy to electrical energy before the conversion then to mechanical energy to drive the car.


There is always loss when one form of energy is converted to another.  In the real world the laws of thermodynamics demand it, entropy considerations.  In that I agree.  Yet I see three advantages to using EVs which deserve consideration.

Economies of scale makes large scale power generation more efficient than individual power generation resulting from conventional engines.  Batteries can also be charged at reasonably high efficiencies.  Together these facts mitigate your loss consideration.

Secondly charging of batteries will be done at night generally when power is cheapest.  The daylight infrastructure then has surplus capacity.  A significant number of EVs can be charged without any additional cost to the electric grid.

Thirdly, and which I consider most important.  EVs are not the same as conventional cars.  Evs have to be used differently and with more consideration as it takes time to charge them and because they have limited range.  What seems like a disadvantage is actually an advantage.  Less total energy is used and all the important things people think they have to do would still get done.  An alternative way of doing transportation with overall reduction in maintenance cost (less energy used).  A reverse engineered technology that has less overall energy demand steps towards a sustainable future.  Lower range lead acid batteries would also give a superior social reward than lithium batteries would. 

That is, If it is not too late and it is just something I ate.

Comparing EVs to cars it is easy to assume that they directly substitute but they don't.  They are a different animal.  One with a lower carbon footprint so long as somebody does not make a super battery.  Sadly much work and effort is being spent to do just that.  Fortunately it is very hard to do.

Reverse engineer and forsake the religion of progress.

If my argument still seems counter-intuitive think about Jevon's paradox.  I'm presenting it to you in reverse form.

http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php/topic,3282.msg57513.html#msg57513
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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2014, 10:38:15 pm »
EV vs ICE Maintenance – The First 100,000 miles

2 years ago
by Mark Hovis ( Don't forget EV prices have gone down since then!)    

If you drive an ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) and have a service file, take it out for comparison. If you own an ICE and don’t have a service file, you should start one, for you will be shocked with how much time and effort you really spend on your vehicle. You may find the service costs found here higher or lower. They are listed as a reminder of how often you require service. The more expensive your auto, the more the manufacturer or dealer pads the service charges. Still, you have to endure these regular maintenance issues.

Tires

Tires are the common denominator between both types of vehicles. The recommended rotation is every 7500 miles. Hence you will have 13 scheduled trips to your mechanic in the first 100,000

 
Check the fluids!

Oil change
 
ICE: The frequency of oil changes vary from person to person and manufacturer. The number used to be 3000 miles.  If you change every 5000, that will be 20 scheduled visits out of your daily routine and about $400-$800.

EV: No thanks!  ;D

Automatic transmission fluid

ICE: This is generally recommended to be changed at 100,000. Depending on whether you flush the system and change the filter or just add fluid, you will spend between $30-$100

EV:No thanks!  ;D:


Coolant


ICE: Generally this will last for 150,000 before recommended change, but you DO have to keep a check on it throughout the life of the ICE for you can do considerable engine damage if you let it run hot.

EV: If you have a thermal management system on your battery, you will have a similar check.

Fuel
400 visits isn't that bad   ;) 
 
ICE: The frequency with which a person fills their ICE varies. The norm is generally once per week. If this is your pattern, and you are driving the national average of 12,750 miles per year, then you have invested FOUR HUNDRED TRIPS to the gas station in your first 100,000 miles. For the lucky, the trip is on their normal route, for others, four hundred special trips. I call that heavy maintenance! 100,000 miles @ $3.50/gal and avg of 28 miles/gal costs $12,500.  Calculate your own

EV: You have plugged and unplugged daily for eight years normally taking 3-5 seconds. The difference being 90 percent are done at the convenience of your home, not investing in an additional four hundred visits to the pump. Average cost 3.5 cents/mile $3500. Check out what EV drivers say about this.     :icon_mrgreen:

Spark Plugs and wires

ICE:  Generally recommended in the first 100,000. Cost DIY $60 Shop $200.

EV:No thanks!   ;D


Muffler
(and a tail pipe8)

 
ICE: Location and driving distance are just a few issues that will determine the life of your muffler.  Short distances do not give time for condensation to dry out thus shortening the life unless it is stainless steel. It is also a high probability that you have to replace more than just the muffler. Generally $100-$250

EV:No thanks!  ;D



Brakes

ICE: Depending on your vehicle and driving style, you will probably have at least 2 trips to your mechanic in the first 100,000. Will budget $200 per visit so call it $400

EV:  The regenerative brakes will cut your visits to the mechanic in half. Still we will plan on one visit in the first 100,000. Costs $200
   ;D
 

The big 100,000 mile maintenance

Ka-Ching!  :P

 
ICE: Timing belts are recommended every 60,000-100,000 with most ICEs not equipped with timing chains. In fact, most recommend that you go ahead and replace the water pump while you are at it. Most service centers will charge for the pump only since the labor is already invested in the timing belt. Cost $600- $800 for the timing belt only. $900- $1100 for both.

Other possible expenses that the ICE can encounter in the first 100,000 include a catalytic converter and automatic transmission as some of the more expensive possibilities.

 
Leaf Battery replacement

Refurbished 23kWh battery for $5500
  :(
 
EV: The big “potential” cost is the battery replacement. At 100,000 miles, your battery may have lost up to 20% of its range, though studies from the American Chemical society predict well managed batteries may last up to twenty years. Unlike the timing belt, you are not running the risk of damaging your vehicle by continuing to drive, so many may continue to drive without this expense. The initial cost in 2012 was around $500-$600/kWh. Studies show this cost could drop to $150-$250/kWh in the next 5-8 years which happens to be the warranty period for most EV battery systems. Already 2013 is showing some packs at 400/kWh.

Some batteries are designed in such a manner as to replace modules opposed to the entire pack which will generally be the better OEM solution. This has allowed some 24kWh OEM refurbished packs to be offered for $5500 or $240/kWh with a core charge.  Parity has arrived.

Ease of installation also matters. GM and Nissan are able to offer low labor rates due to their easy access.  You should be aware of the installation labor cost before making a purchase.  This price is based on the design, not the future cost of the battery.

It is still too early to realize the aftermarket pricing but this is sure to follow. With a large number of early adopters also investing in solar, it is likely that they may keep their old battery as a future solar home battery back up if core values are too small.

Also for the EV with a renewed battery solution, you effectively have hit the reset button for the next 100,000. Not the case for the ICE. The mechanical components of the ICE continue to wear and are now subject to the same continual maintenance as well as at least one major service call on the way to 200,000 miles.  But this is not the largest looming cost. At this point, we are 10-15 years into rising gas and lowering battery cost . By this time, rising gas and lowering battery costs, have almost certainly made the ICE a relic on the road to 200,000 miles.

Now you might think that I am implying that the EV is unbreakable. 
This obviously with anything mechanical is not the case. I am first and foremost pointing out the huge imbalance in regular maintenance. I made mention of possible failures with the ICE like the automatic transmission. I challenge you once again to review your own ICE service file to better understand the extra cost you may have been trying to forget.  ;)

You will have similar possibilities with the EV with anything in the electrical system from inverters to  rectifiers. One major difference being that in most good EV warranties, the electrical system is covered for the first 100,000 miles, which is the emphasis of this piece So if you are considering your first EV, make sure to ask for a specific breakdown of what is covered in their warranty.  Though nothing is maintenance free, I think you will find a huge imbalance in favor of the EV.


http://insideevs.com/ev-vs-ice-maintenance-the-first-100000-miles/

RE,
You may claim the above is "just" maintenance and has NOTHING TO DO with energy required to move the vehicle. Oh yes it DOES! Maintenance USES ENERGY! A lot of it!. 400 trips to the gas station are part of your ICE DUTIES, are they not? That uses ENERGY, does it not?

And so on.



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AGelbert

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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2014, 10:39:28 pm »
EV vs. ICE - True cost of ownership

cmaso | August 26, 2013

Wanted to share this with those who are thinking about an MS.

My watts/mi for the first 3,000 mi has been ~295, that means I can go ~3.4 mi/kW, and I pay $.11 per kW. A comp ICE vehicle (V6) would get ~20 mpg combined city/hwy (current gas prices are ~$4.00)... do a little math and that's ~$12,250 per year for gas compared to $585 per year for electricity. Not to put too fine a point on it... for the first 125,000 miles it would cost me ~$85,000 for gas vs. ~4,000 for electricity.
  :o

I know it's not the right car for everyone, but I think we are at the point where the market needs to stop calling this an $80,000 car. When you buy a MS you are converting the majority of the operating expense to a capitol expense. The result is a higher upfront cost, but a much lower monthly recurring fee to operate it...

http://www.teslamotors.com/en_AU/forum/forums/ev-vs-ice-true-cost-ownership
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AGelbert

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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2014, 12:09:54 am »
RE,
The Gooberment did the math on the EV vs the CV (conventional Vehicle powered by an ICE) with a study that covered all the bases from manufacturing to market to customer to maintenance. You KNOW they aren't going do a puff piece on the EV. They did the costs figuring an ICE manufacturer would be introducing the EVs. They figured the ICE cost would go UP as the EVs got into full production. At any rate, they did the math on the energy and maintenance after the cars are sold. The study is hard boiled nuts and bolts. The EV WINS! It uses LESS energy all around! :emthup: :icon_sunny:



Same link as in the graphic above for the detailed study.
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/HV/14.pdf

And all that BEFORE the modern Lithium batteries came in!


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AGelbert

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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2014, 11:47:04 pm »
Vehicle Choice Overload


A guide to overcoming powertrain paralysis






Full article here:

http://blog.rmi.org/blog_2014_09_22_vehicle_choice_overload
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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #52 on: October 04, 2014, 10:22:41 pm »
by TreeHugger
October 4, 2014
9:00 am

California Could Soon Mandate All New Housing to Be ‘Electric Vehicle Capable’

Written by Michael Graham Richard

Some things are a lot easier and less expensive if you have foresight. When you’re building a new house, it might cost a few extra bucks (estimates vary from $50 to $200) to future proof it with wiring that can handle the 240v/40 amps required to recharge an electric car relatively rapidly (nowhere near as fast as a Supercharger station, but fast enough considering that most plug-ins spend many hours parked overnight and during work days). But if the house is already built and you need to upgrade the wiring, that can cost a bundle more… It might even be enough to discourage some from even upgrading and replacing their gas-guzzler with an electron-powered ride.

That’s where foresight comes into play. Palo Alto has already changed its building code to make sure that new houses will be pre-wired for plug-ins, which was a great idea. So great that the whole state of California is apparently moving in that direction. David Herron reports that draft building code documents contain provisions for new housing and parking lots to have wiring and electrical systems that can handle EV charging.

Part of the big deal of this is that it would apply to multi-family housing and parking lots, making it easier for condo and apartment dwellers to ditch oil even if they don’t have a private garage where they could recharge.
  ;D

This new building code could start to take effect in 2015-2016. Hopefully buildings are already ahead of the curve and future-proofing their new buildings already, but nothing can make as big a difference as having this in the official building code that everybody has to follow. I hope that other states (and countries) do the same.

New house buyers should also ask if the wiring can handle 40 amps 240v charging at a minimum. Even if you don’t buy an EV for 5 years, you’ll be glad you checked when you do  ;D


Read more: http://www.treehugger.com/cars/california-could-soon-mandate-all-new-housing-be-electric-vehicle-capable.html#ixzz3FEVzSD6M
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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2014, 02:53:46 pm »

Venucia e30 a five-seater hatchback electric car developed by a joint venture between Japan's Nissan Motor Co and China's Dongfeng Motor Co.

Top 10 cheapest new energy cars promoted in China 

 Updated: 2014-09-17 10:32  (chinadaily.com.cn)
 

China started waiving nationwide the 10 percent vehicle purchase tax for a total of 17 new energy passenger car models, including fully-electric and plug-in hybrid cars.

Only six models on the list are available in the market, while 11 are still in the planning stage.

The country has been giving subsidies ranging from 33,250 yuan to 57,000 yuan ($5,410 to 9,280) to buyers of selected new energy cars since September 2013.


Zotye's Zhidou E20

Here are the 10 new energy car models having lowest manufacturer suggested retail price and are on the favorable policy list: (pictures and details at link)


http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/motoring/2014-09/17/content_18612888.htm
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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2014, 08:22:44 pm »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWrhQifMuSc&feature=player_embedded
Electric bus service replace ALL diesel powered busses in Seoul, Korea by 2020!  ;D
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AGelbert

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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #55 on: October 25, 2014, 04:34:06 pm »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYL6NyU1g3k&feature=player_embedded
Move over, battery powered busses, here come the Ultra Capacitor (unlimited charge cycles!) powered buses!  ;D
Note: this video is from 2009 so you can be sure the technology has improved considerably. If you haven't heard more about this solution to public transportation WITHOUT the need of polluting fossil fuels, thank the bought and paid for media for it.  >:(

Here's a 2010 video with better resolution:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3rg-SsPJuU&feature=player_embedded
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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #56 on: October 25, 2014, 05:10:35 pm »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4L20yc4JxE&feature=player_embedded

January 2014 Wireless charging bus service in Milton Keynes   ;D
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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #57 on: October 25, 2014, 06:51:30 pm »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JpMTWdPZ6c&feature=player_embedded
Proterra Ecoliner Electric Bus - Jay Leno's Garage
Very educational discussion of materials used in construction, powertrain, charging system, etc.! Enjoy! 
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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #58 on: October 25, 2014, 07:21:23 pm »
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Re: Electric Vehicles
« Reply #59 on: November 25, 2014, 07:02:00 pm »
11/25/2014 01:50 PM      print story email story    ShareThis 

China, First to Commercialize Electric Airplane   


SustainableBusiness.com News

Yesterday, we reported that Toyota will start sales of the first mass produced fuel cell car next month, and today we learned that China is about to begin mass production of an electric airplane.   

 If RX1E succeeds commercially, China will be the technology leader in the field. The first manned electric flight was back in 1973, but until now these aircraft haven't made it past the demonstration phase.

 The two-seater, light-duty aircraft runs on electric motors and can be powered by fuel-cells, solar, ultracapacitors, power beaming or batteries. It can fly for 90 minutes on fully charged batteries, and charging the 10 kilowatt-hour batteries takes only 40 minutes at a cost of $0.80.


The Rui Xiang (RX1E) by Aviation Electric China

 Airplanes of this size are commonly used by police, for flight training, mapping surveys, and just for fun by flying aficionados.

Liaoning General Aviation Academy, which designed and aircraft, hopes to sell 100 within three years, and plans to build a dedicated manufacturing plant that can make 100 a year in Shenyang. It will sell for $163,000, lithium batteries included.

 Electric airplanes have lots of advantages - easy maintenance, low operating costs, high safety levels and obvious environmental attributes. 

In September, the first emissions reduction program in the US aviation industry took off, starting with airports.

Read our article, Buzzword is Electric For Future of Aviation.   


http://www.sustainablebusiness.com/index.cfm/go/news.display/id/26024

Renewable energy=                                 =Fossil Fuelers

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