Renewable Revolution

MarK_BC,

The gist of my argument is that 2 - 2 = 0 in thermodynamics. The petroleum industry would never have gotten off the ground if the "externalities" had been accounted for responsibly. They weren't.They still aren't and it is quite literally killing us.The solution to pollution is not dillution unless we live in an infinitely pollutable biosphere.

As to population carrying capacity, I think that "problem" is solving itself by the amount of toxins that have been introduced into the biosphere over the last 150 years or so. I also believe that we do not need the level of energy use that the media claims is essential.

We can do with much less. We need to reduce our use and make THAT use totally renewable energy products. Of course it won't happen and there will be a huge die off but that's not because there are no options. For example, you see the biofuel paradigm as a "food or fuel" binary. That's a bill of goods the petroleum industry has sold us. The ethanol from corn idiocy was a set up. Lemna minor (Duckweed) grows about 8 times faster and does not require petroleum pesticides or fertilizers. It grows in stagnant water on unusable land (we've got a LOT of that and is fertilized with animal feces). The corn ethanol boondoggle is just one example of the "We have to have oil" bullshit we are fed.

Duckweed post

To show how massively unnecessary our oil setup is in the USA, Here are some facts from a scholarly book that has been peer reviewed:

Dilworth (2010-03-12). Too Smart for our Own Good (pp. 399-400). Cambridge University Press. Kindle Edition.
"As suggested earlier, war, for example, which represents a cost for society, is a source of profit to capitalists. In this way we can partly understand e.g. the American military expenditures in the Persian Gulf area. Already before the first Gulf War, i.e. in 1985, the United States spent $47 billion projecting power into the region. If seen as being spent to obtain Gulf oil, It AMOUNTED TO $468 PER BARREL, or 18 TIMES the $27 or so that at that time was paid for the oil itself.

In fact, if Americans had spent as much to make buildings heat-tight as they spent in ONE YEAR at the end of the 1980s on the military forces meant to protect the Middle Eastern oil fields, THEY COULD HAVE ELIMINATED THE NEED TO IMPORT OIL from the Middle East. So why have they not done so? Because, while the $468 per barrel may be seen as being a cost the American taxpayers had to bear, and a negative social effect those living in the Gulf area had to bear, it meant only profits for American capitalists. "

As for the scientists I rail about, corporations have basically taken over "science" with all research geared towards profit. That's par for the course you might say but the level of bought and paid for mendacity in the service of fossil and nuclear fuels is breathtaking.

Here are some examples.

Gas fracking corruption posts
http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/renewables/blasts-form-the-2012-to-2013-past-when-there-was-more-hope/msg10257/#msg10257

http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/renewables/blasts-form-the-2012-to-2013-past-when-there-was-more-hope/msg10258/#msg10258

I've got to hit the hay now but I will continue this discussion tomorrow. I agree that, in a sane society, we would agree to reduce our energy use 90% NOW and also target about a tenth of the present human population as the ideal and work towards that goal together.

It probably won't happen but it doesn't mean we shouldn't holler from the rooftops how this crap got started with Rockefeller so that when, or if, humanity recovers from the coming environmental and civilizational collapse, the survivors will not let the greedy idiots play their stupid polluting power games again. Talk to you tomorrow. 😎