Renewable Revolution

Open Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: AGelbert on November 12, 2013, 09:39:54 pm


Title: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on November 12, 2013, 09:39:54 pm
From Legend to Reality

Thonis-Heracleion (the Egyptian and Greek names of the city) is a city lost between legend and reality. Before the foundation of Alexandria in 331 BC, the city knew glorious times as the obligatory port of entry to Egypt for all ships coming from the Greek world. It had also a religious importance because of the temple of Amun, which played an important role in rites associated with dynasty continuity.

The city was founded probably around the 8th century BC, underwent diverse natural catastrophes, and finally sunk entirely into the depths of the Mediterranean in the 8th century AD.  

(http://www.franckgoddio.org/typo3temp/pics/76db89e5a3.jpg)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n5Bb_UOS4I&feature=player_embedded


(http://www.franckgoddio.org/typo3temp/pics/59372a0eb9.jpg)

Prior to its discovery in 2000 by the IEASM, no trace of Thonis-Heracleion had been found. Its name was almost razed from the memory of mankind, only preserved in ancient classic texts and rare inscriptions found on land by archaeologists.

(http://www.franckgoddio.org/typo3temp/pics/a1daa59e76.jpg)

The Greek historian Herodotus (5th century BC) tells us of a great temple that was built where the famous hero Herakles first set foot on to Egypt. He also reports of Helen’s visit to Heracleion with her lover Paris before the Trojan War. More than four centuries after Herodotus’ visit to Egypt, the geographer Strabo observed that the city of Heracleion, which possessed the temple of Herakles, is located straight to the east of Canopus at the mouth of the Canopic branch of the River Nile.

(http://www.franckgoddio.org/typo3temp/pics/d57eee5abb.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQez7ojgQDk&feature=player_embedded

(http://www.franckgoddio.org/typo3temp/pics/dd0de2de47.jpg)

The Discovery

With his unique survey-based approach that utilises the most sophisticated technical equipment, Franck Goddio and his team from the IEASM, in cooperation with the Egyptian Supreme Council of Antiquities, were able to locate, map and excavate parts of the city of Thonis-Heracleion, which lies 6.5 kilometres off today’s coastline.

(http://www.franckgoddio.org/typo3temp/pics/b54267518e.jpg)

The city is located within an overall research area of 11 by 15 kilometres in the western part of Aboukir Bay. Franck Goddio has found important information on the ancient landmarks of Thonis-Heracleion, such as the grand temple of Amun and his son Khonsou (Herakles for the Greeks), the harbours that once controlled all trade into Egypt, and the daily life of its inhabitants.

(http://www.franckgoddio.org/typo3temp/pics/dcdd730324.jpg)

He has also solved a historic enigma that has puzzled Egyptologists over the years: the archaeological material has revealed that Heracleion and Thonis were in fact one and the same city with two names; Heracleion being the name of the city for the Greeks and Thonis for the Egyptians.

(http://www.franckgoddio.org/typo3temp/pics/b4f3581e44.jpg)


The objects recovered from the excavations illustrate the cities’ beauty and glory,  the magnificence of their grand temples and the abundance of historic evidence: colossal statues, inscriptions and architectural elements,  jewelry and coins, ritual objects and ceramics - a civilization frozen in time.    (http://www.clker.com/cliparts/c/8/f/8/11949865511933397169thumbs_up_nathan_eady_01.svg.hi.png)




(http://www.franckgoddio.org/typo3temp/pics/52884d10eb.jpg)


The quantity and quality of the archaeological material excavated from the site of Thonis-Heracleion show that this city had known a time of opulence and a peak in its occupation from the 6th to the 4th century BC. This is readily seen in the large quantity of coins and ceramics dated to this period.

The port of Thonis-Heracleion had numerous large basins and functioned as a hub of international trade. The intense activity in the port fostered the city’s prosperity. More than seven hundred ancient anchors of various forms and over 60 wrecks dating from the 6th to the 2nd century BC are also an eloquent testimony to the intensity of maritime activity here.

The city extended all around the temple and a network of canals in and around the city must have given it a lake dwelling appearance. On the islands and islets dwellings and secondary sanctuaries were located. Excavations here have revealed beautiful archaeological material such as bronze statuettes. On the north side of the temple to Herakles, a grand canal flowed through the city from east to west and connected the port basins with a lake to the west.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6rz3iagcKk&feature=player_embedded

http://www.franckgoddio.org/projects/sunken-civilizations/heracleion.html
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: Surly1 on November 13, 2013, 06:15:18 am
This story- and the videos- are just extraordinary, AG.
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on November 13, 2013, 07:32:33 pm
Thanks Surly. I cannot figure out why, with the huge spike in the daily views I have on my DD newz channel, more people don't agree that I've got good content, visit my sight to jack up my views, and register. I don't get it.  ???

I have discussed the page hit count mystery with create-a-forum support. No answer from them yet.
I'm learning CSS so I can take this baby apart and put it back together any way I want, whenever I want (same with wikidot!). I am tired of all this web software mystery out there. I am putting my programmer hat on from many years ago and I'm going get this stuff DOWN once and for all.  >:(  ;)

The Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. article is almost done.  There REALLY WAS a "SHERLOCK HOLMES" connection! Arthur Conan Doyle gave Sherlock the "Holmes" last name in honor of Holmes' father, a noted medical doctor. ;D 

Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: Surly1 on November 14, 2013, 06:54:24 am
When you put your plumber's hat on, fix the "quote" function, willy a?

As to why people don'r register, who can say? I would think that anyone who follows one of your links from D would have to end up here, yes?

Anyhow, the thread of lost civilizations is compelling to me. Too many oddball and out of place artifacts without explanation have been discovered for me to believe that the conventional narrative of history is true...
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on November 14, 2013, 03:14:52 pm
When you put your plumber's hat on, fix the "quote" function, willy a?

As to why people don'r register, who can say? I would think that anyone who follows one of your links from D would have to end up here, yes?

Anyhow, the thread of lost civilizations is compelling to me. Too many oddball and out of place artifacts without explanation have been discovered for me to believe that the conventional narrative of history is true...

This is a test.

Okay, that worked. BUT, to make it work I had to RIGHT click on the quote and select "open in new tab". At the new tab the reply was set up with the quoted post.
Weird, I know. But you can make it work that way until I figure out how to make it work like it does in the DD forum. I am now going to log out as Admin and log in as a guest to see if it works for the lowest common denominator of posters.
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: Empirical Test on November 14, 2013, 03:36:54 pm
This is a test.

Okay, that worked. BUT, to make it work I had to RIGHT click on the quote and select "open in new tab". At the new tab the reply was set up with the quoted post. Weird, I know. But you can make it work that way until I figure out how to make it work like it does in the DD forum. I am now going to log out as Admin and log in as a guest to see if it works for the lowest common denominator of posters.

This is a test to see if a guest can use the quote feature. It worked this time by just hitting the quote button exactly like it works at the DD (LEFT click!). ;D

As a guest I see that I have to enter a reCaptcha thing to make sure I am a human.  ;D
Here goes nuttin'.

It refused to accept it until I entered a guest name and a valid e-mail address.

I entered, "Empirical Test" for the guest name and a valid e-mail address with a new reCaptcha "I am human" check.
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on November 14, 2013, 04:11:38 pm
This is a test to see if a guest can use the quote feature. It worked this time by just hitting the quote button exactly like it works at the DD (LEFT click!). ;D

As a guest I see that I have to enter a reCaptcha thing to make sure I am a human.  ;D
Here goes nuttin'.

It refused to accept it until I entered a guest name and a valid e-mail address.

I entered, "Empirical Test" for the guest name and a valid e-mail address with a new reCaptcha "I am human" check.

Back to being me again, I have to right click for the quote to work in an "open in new tab" way.

So it goes. Whatever works.  ???  ;)

One day at a time, I'll get this place workin' right. (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/th_running1.gif)    (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/245.gif)   
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on November 21, 2013, 03:22:46 pm
Ancient City Discovered Beneath Biblical-Era Ruins in Israel

By Tia Ghose, Staff Writer | November 16, 2013

rchaeologists have unearthed traces of a previously unknown, 14th-century Canaanite city buried underneath the ruins of another city in Israel.

The traces include an Egyptian amulet of Amenhotep III and several pottery vessels from the Late Bronze Age unearthed at the site of Gezer, an ancient Canaanite city.

Gezer was once a major center that sat at the crossroads of trade routes between Asia and Africa, said Steven Ortiz, a co-director of the site's excavations and a biblical scholar at the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas.

The remains of the ancient city suggest the site was used for even longer than previously known. [The Holy Land: 7 Amazing Archaeological Finds]

Biblical city

The ancient city of Gezer has been an important site since the Bronze Age, because it sat along the Way of the Sea, or the Via Maris, an ancient trade route that connected Egypt, Syria, Anatolia and Mesopotamia.

The city was ruled over many centuries by Canaanites, Egyptians and Assyrians, and Biblical accounts from roughly the 10th century describe an Egyptian pharaoh giving the city to King Solomon as a wedding gift after marrying his daughter.

"It's always changed hands throughout history," Ortiz told LiveScience.
The site has been excavated for a century, and most of the excavations so far date to the the 10th through eighth centuries B.C. Gezer also holds some of the largest underground water tunnels of antiquity, which were likely used to keep the water supply safe during sieges.

But earlier this summer, Ortiz and his colleague Samuel Wolff of the Israel Antiquities Authority noticed traces of an even more ancient city from centuries before King Solomon's time. Among the layers was a section that dated to about the 14th century B.C., containing a scarab, or beetle, amulet from King Amenhotep III, the grandfather of King Tut. They also found shards of Philistine pottery.
During that period, the ancient site was probably a Canaanite city that was under Egyptian influence.
The findings are consistent with what scholars suspected of the site, said Andrew Vaughn, a biblical scholar and executive director of the American Schools of Oriental Research, who was not involved in the study.

"It's not surprising that a city that was of importance in the biblical kingdoms of Israel and Judah would have an older history and would have played an important political and military role prior to that time," Vaughn told LiveScience. "If you didn't control Gezer, you didn't control the east-west trade route."

But once the location of that major road moved during the Roman period, the city waned in importance. It was later conquered and destroyed, but never fully rebuilt.
"Just like today when you have a ghost town — where you move the train and that city goes out of use," Ortiz said.

Follow Tia Ghose on Twitter and Google+. Follow LiveScience @livescience, Facebook & Google+. Original article on LiveScience.

http://www.livescience.com/41143-city-found-under-canaanite-city.html
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on November 24, 2013, 02:44:35 am

Giant Pyramids and Sphinxes Found in The Bermuda Triangle


(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-VQpdXmFWetk/UcKGr6s5GTI/AAAAAAAAAr0/p2eOsfRTYkM/s1600/atlantis.jpg)



Two scientists, Paul Weinzweig and Pauline Zalitzki, working off the coast of Cuba and using a robot submersible, have confirmed that a gigantic city exists at the bottom of the ocean. The site of the ancient city — that includes several sphinxes and at least four giant pyramids plus other structures — amazingly sits within the boundaries of the fabled Bermuda Triangle.

 
According to a report by Arclein of Terra Forming Terra, Cuban Subsea Pyramid Complex, the evidence points to the city being simultaneously inundated with rising waters and the land sinking into the sea. This correlates exactly with the Atlantis legend.


The disaster may have occurred at the end of the last Ice Age. As the Arctic icecap catastrophically melted it caused sea levels to rise quickly around the world, especially affecting the Northern Hemisphere. Coast lines changed; land was lost; islands (even island continents) disappeared.

Arclein observes: “At the time uplifted portions of the Mid Atlantic Ridge subsided also including Lyonese and the home islands and land mass around the Azores. Even if that had not happened, this subsidence was amply large enough

This would have produced an orthogonal pressure forcing subsidence to either East or West. Since the ridge between Cuba and Yucatan is the natural point of weakness between the Gulf subsidence basin and the Caribbean subsidence basin, it naturally subsided deeply. The driver for all this was the hydrostatic changes brought about by both the original crustal shift of 12,900 years ago that I have called the Pleistocene Nonconformity and the slow uplift of the Hudson Bay Basin brought about by the ending of the Ice Age.”

Cuban missile crisis stops research

According to journalist Luis Mariano Fernandez the city was first discovered decades ago, but all access to it was stopped during and after the Cuban Missile Crisis. (http://www.luismarianofernandez.com/AtlantidaEnCuba4.html) To view in other languages, use the google translate tool bar.

The U.S. government discovered the alleged place during the Cuban missile crisis in the sixties, Nuclear submarines cruising in the Gulf (in deep sea) met pyramid structures. They immediately shut down the site and took control of him and the objects, in order that it will not come to Russians hands.”

The science team of deep ocean experts, archaeologists and oceanographers found ruins of ancient buildings 600 feet below the ocean. They say the city is Atlantis.

Look carefully, in the muky water a giant pyramid is visible(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii567/riseearth/Atlantis_02.jpg)

Pyramids and sphinxes bigger than Egypt’s

Evidence that the island of Cuba is the vestige of a once mighty culture is supported by Zalitzki’s discovery on the island of extremely ancient symbols and pictograms identical to those seen on the underwater structures.

Using exploration submersibles, they discovered amazingly huge pyramid structures similar to (but larger than) the pyramids in Giza, Egypt. They estimate the Atlantis pyramids are constructed with stones weighing many hundreds of tons.

Speaking with a scientist about the possibility that the ruins are indeed Atlantis, Fernandez reports the expert replied:

“…in the Yucatan cultures today is possible that what still remains of the aborigines of those places perhaps the Olmecs or some very primitive civilization of Yucatan, the northern part of Central America—originated according to them on an island that sank by a cataclysm. This island is called Atlanticú.”

That too fits the stories about the sudden demise of the wondrous Atlantis.

Atlanticú. Atlantis. The aboriginal natives still call it that in their history.

During an interview about the exploration of the mega-city, Fernandez asked lead scientist Pauline Zalitzki about the civilaztion that built it.

“When we published the first news of this finding,” she said, “the University of Veracruz was interested in our work and we had recorded images of these structures on the seabed. Specifically, the Institute of Anthropology of the University excavations invited me. They were doing [studies] on parts and ruins of the Olmec civilization.

The Olmecs and other native peoples all have primary morphology marking the arrival of this continent. This mean coming from the direction of Cuba, and had to occur in a very large earthquake where their land sank. Morphologies indicate that they belong to three families who were saved. One of these families came to the coast of Veracruz, which are supposedly the Olmec. Others came to Central America and traveled to the Pacific coast, and these families created the civilization of the Americas as we know it today, because they distributed all their knowledge.

When these anthropologists saw underwater images of this city, and saw some stone monoliths, some symbol, and inscriptions, they identified with Olmec motifs. They were very surprised.”

The Olmecs devolved from the survivors of Atlantis, a much superior culture destroyed aft the end of the Ice Age flooding. The world was reshaped and a super-civilization destroyed, remembered for millennia only in legend and a passing refernce by the philosopher Plato.

But Atlantis was real, is real: scientists Paul Weinzweig and Pauline Zalitzki have found it.

Sonar images of mega-structures on the seabed ( http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii567/riseearth/Mega_structure.jpg)



Sources and more information:


• BBC News


• Giant Sphinx Discovered Among Bermuda Triangle Pyramids

http://altering-perspectives.com/2013/06/giant-pyramids-and-sphinxes-found-in.html#
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: Surly1 on November 24, 2013, 01:05:17 pm
Fascinating story.
Looks like you are open for business. Diner seems down.
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on November 24, 2013, 10:54:07 pm
Surly,
The DD has been getting smacked a lot recently. Do you think it's the increase in traffic or a deliberate attempt to muzzle our voices (denial of service attack) there by somebody that doesn't like the increased readership?  I've noticed that even the waste based society thread that hardly ever gets new posts is mushrooming in the views.  :o
Title: Forbidden Archeology is probably more truth based than what we think.
Post by: AGelbert on December 02, 2013, 01:56:09 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oGqPc6poS4&feature=player_embedded
Title: Yonaguni - Ancient Underwater City
Post by: AGelbert on December 04, 2013, 03:27:42 pm
(http://www.arasartgallery.com/uploads/3/3/8/2/3382331/9851636_orig.gif)
(http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/ox51b14473.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GqAlcQIQPCk/Tzq2ZtzTacI/AAAAAAAAApk/Z-DlEFBMYqY/s1600/Yonaguni+model.jpg)
(http://subharanjangupta.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/yonaguni.jpg)
(http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2011/07/08/127217.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Nvw7n.jpg)
(http://www.rabbithole2.com/presentation/images2/artifacts/japan5.jpg)
(http://www.cartruts.com/pictures/Post-Glacial_Sea_Level.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBmJJtSDnQg&feature=player_embedded



Discovery


The sea off Yonaguni is a popular diving location during the winter months owing to its large population of hammerhead sharks. In 1987, while looking for a good place to observe the sharks, Kihachiro Aratake, a director of the Yonaguni-Cho Tourism Association, noticed some singular seabed formations resembling architectonic structures.[3] Shortly thereafter, a group of scientists directed by Masaaki Kimura of the University of the Ryūkyūs visited the formations.

The formation has since become a relatively popular attraction for divers despite the strong currents.[3] In 1997, Japanese industrialist Yasuo Watanabe sponsored an informal expedition comprising writers John Anthony West and Graham Hancock, photographer Santha Faiia, geologist Robert Schoch, a few sport divers and instructors, and a shooting crew for Channel 4 and Discovery Channel. Another notable visitor was freediver Jacques Mayol, who wrote a book on his dives at Yonaguni.[4]

Main features

The Monument consists of medium to very fine sandstones and mudstones of the Lower Miocene Yaeyama Group believed to have been deposited about 20 million years ago.[1] Most of the formations are connected to the underlying rock mass (as opposed to being assembled out of freestanding rocks).

The formation called "The Turtle"

The main feature (the "Monument" proper) is a rectangular formation measuring about 150 by 40 m (490 by 130 ft) and about 27 m (90 ft) tall; the top is about 5 m (16 ft) below sea level.[5]

Some of its details are said to be:

two closely spaced pillars which rise to within eight feet of the surface;
a 5 m (16 ft) wide ledge that encircles the base of the formation on three sides;
a stone column about 7 m (23 ft) tall;
a straight wall 10 m (33 ft) long;
an isolated boulder resting on a low platform;
a low star-shaped platform;
a triangular depression with two large holes at its edge;
an L-shaped rock.



Artificial structures

The flat parallel faces, sharp edges, and mostly right angles of the formation have led many people, including many of the underwater photographers and divers who have visited the site and some scholars, to the opinion that those features are human-made.[6] These people include Gary and Cecilia Hagland[6] and Tom Holden, who went on underwater expeditions to study and photograph the site. These features include a trench that has two internal 90° angles as well as the twin megaliths that appear to have been placed there. These megaliths have straight edges and square corners.

However, sea currents have been known to move large rocks on a regular basis.[2][5][7][8] Some of those who see the formations as being largely natural claim that they may have been modified by human hands.[1] The semiregular terraces of the Monument have been compared to other examples of megalithic architecture, such as the rock-hewn terraces seen at Sacsayhuaman.[9] The formations have also been compared to the Okinawa Tomb, a rock-hewn structure of uncertain age.

Other evidence presented by those who favor an artificial origin[who?] include the two round holes (about 2 feet wide, according to photographs) on the edge of the Triangle Pool feature and a straight row of smaller holes that have been interpreted as an abandoned attempt to split off a section of the rock by means of wedges, as in ancient quarries.

Kimura believes that he has identified traces of drawings of animals and people engraved on the rocks, including a horselike sign that he believes resembles a character from the Kaida script. Some have also interpreted a formation on the side of one of the monuments as a crude moai-like "face".

Supporters of artificial origin, such as Graham Hancock,[6] also argue that, while many of the features seen at Yonaguni are also seen in natural sandstone formations throughout the world, the concentration of so many peculiar formations in such a small area is highly unlikely.[6] They also point to the relative absence of loose blocks on the flat areas of the formation, which would be expected if they were formed solely by natural erosion and fracturing.[citation needed] Robert Schoch has noted that the rocks are swept with strong currents.[10]

If any part of the monument was deliberately constructed or modified, that must have happened during the most recent ice age, when the sea level was much lower than it is today (e.g. 39 m (130 ft) lower around 10,000 years BCE). During the ice age, the East China Sea was a narrow bay opening to the ocean at today's Tokara Gap.[11] The Sea of Japan was an inland sea and there was no Yellow Sea; people and animals could walk into the Ryukyu peninsula from the continent. Therefore, Yonaguni was the southern end of a land bridge that connected it to Taiwan, Ryūkyū, Japan, and Asia. This fact is underscored by a rock pillar in a now-submerged cave that has been interpreted as a fused stalactite-stalagmite pair, which could only form above water.

Kimura first estimated that this must be at least 10,000 years old (8,000 BCE), dating it to a time when it would have been above water.[7] In a report given to the 21st Pacific Science Congress in 2007, he revised this estimate and dated it to 2,000 to 3,000 years ago as the sea level then was close to current levels. He suggests that after construction tectonic activity caused it to be submerged below sea level. Archaeologist Richard J. Pearson believes this to be unlikely.[10] Kimura believes he can identify a pyramid, castles, roads, monuments and a stadium, and has surmised that the site may be a remnant of the mythical lost continent of Mu.[2]

The existence of an ancient stoneworking tradition at Yonaguni and other Ryukyu islands is demonstrated by some old tombs and several stone vessels of uncertain age.[1] Small camps, pottery, stone tools and large fireplaces were found on Yonaguni possibly dating back to 2500 BCE; Pearson notes that these were small communities, adding "They are not likely to have had extra energy for building stone monuments."[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yonaguni_Monument

Title: Palace of King Ravana Over 5000 years ago
Post by: AGelbert on December 08, 2013, 02:06:38 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgLHp3Fd9as&feature=player_embedded
Palace of King Ravana Over 5000 years ago
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: Surly1 on December 08, 2013, 11:40:32 am
Must say, AG, I am endlessly fascinated by lost history and anthropology.

Graham Hancock wrote a book about a submerged Japanese city some years ago. I enjoyed that, and it too was complete with peole arguing against, saying that dressed right angles were natural formations, etc.
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on December 17, 2013, 01:50:49 am
Quote
it too was complete with people arguing against, saying that dressed right angles were natural formations, etc.

Yep, they are always arguing about what natural or not. There's a lot of rock formation that looks like it came out of a hexagon mold factory in Ireland (giant's causway). It was some kind geologic
process when the rock cools that caused that.

(http://www.sgj.us/photos2/giants_causeway_Ireland.jpg)

But Yonaguni looks a lot like that palace King Ravana built on a stone promontory. It looks like the real deal to me. It was above water at one time and I see no way that such asymmetrical shape can come  about on ALL FOUR SIDES by nature. If it was like a scalloped wall on the grand canyon or something like that  with no other sides, I would say it was natural. Maybe someday we will know.
Title: Civilizations lost through a Catastrophic Pole and Crustal shift?
Post by: AGelbert on December 26, 2013, 01:03:13 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqYO4rA12EE&feature=player_embedded
The above computer animation of a pole shift causing catastrophic rapid crustal movement could easily explain why the frozen wooly mammoths in Siberia were found with flowers and plants in their stomachs that simply do not grow in a cold climate. The flash frozen bodies effect would certainly take place if Siberia moved a thousand miles or more towards the north pole in a few hours. 

Something like the above, even if it was a more gentle shift of, say a thousand miles or so, would be enough to cause massive tidal waves and the destruction of most land based, ancient civilizations.

The few survivors that happened to be far from populated areas very high in some mountains, without education or knowledge of the past, would not, as occurred when the Spaniards asked the Incas about the ruins at Lake Titicaca, know who built them or how to duplicate the precision in stonework and joining.  8)

And all that was centuries before more pre-Inca ruins were discovered.

Aug 23, 2000 - The ruins of a pre-Incans ancient temple have been found under Lake ... of the lake, sited in the Andes mountains between Bolivia and Peru.  :o

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/892616.stm
Title: Tomorrow may have been Yesterday
Post by: AGelbert on February 05, 2014, 12:58:14 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qh6MK_XNIU&feature=player_embedded
Title: How could upward of a million people survive here, over a thousand years ago?
Post by: AGelbert on February 23, 2014, 05:07:08 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqp_H95wjPE&feature=player_embedded


The Miracle Of Terra Preta 


 A large pre-historic civilization is found in the central Amazon. Archeologists and scientists are shocked. The soil there is thought to be impossible to grow sufficient produce in. How could upward of a million people survive here, over a thousand years ago?

 Could this be the elusive El Dorado, the city of gold?

 Because there is a kind of gold here, in great abundance: bio char, or black gold. The most fertile soil on earth. It's no accident. Bio char is not naturally occurring in nature, it must be cultivated by man.

 Bio Char is an ancient method of enhancing soil fertility and carbon sequestration with charcoal and organic matter. It helps the soil retain water and increase crop yields. It enhances microbiological activity. It retains nutrients for plants that would otherwise be lost to the atmosphere, or washed away by rains.

 This could represent a key strategy in breaking the cycle of slash and burn farming, and restore our soil.

 Now we know how this civilization thrived. At 30 minutes into this presentation, the miracle of Bio Char is explained. There is an 880% increase in crop yields when bio char is used!

 And here is something we didn't know: The great civilization in the Amazon left a precious legacy. In the last 10 minutes of this documentary we learn that the stuff actually renews itself!

 If we can unlock the secret to reproducing this black gold, we can save the planet!

 --Bibi Farber

 This video was produced by the BBC
- See more at: http://www.nextworldtv.com/page/26053.html#sthash.CuApRRGc.dpuf
Title: A Mayan codex predicted a solar eclipse 1000 years in advance PLUS a UFO VISIT!
Post by: AGelbert on April 14, 2014, 02:19:11 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMPb0qA_5Ns&feature=player_embedded
HOW did the Mayans know 1000 years in advance that we would be visited by the "The brothers from the Stars" on the day of a solar eclipse?  :o ???
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on July 04, 2014, 10:00:41 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QJ09TGy9kc&feature=player_embedded
The Indus Valley Civilization had Renewable Energy Infrastructure.  ;D
And, they were peaceful. Perhaps there is a connection... 8)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnsatmxY7Kc&feature=player_embedded
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on July 15, 2014, 01:35:41 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s76szs05JaY&feature=player_embedded
Title: Arctic Expansion
Post by: AGelbert on September 03, 2014, 11:05:24 pm
Arctic Expansion

Genetic analysis reveals the history of the earliest human migrations in the region.

By Jyoti Madhusoodanan | September 2, 2014

The Arctic’s earliest human inhabitants migrated into the region from Siberia approximately 6,000 years ago.
These so called Paleo-Eskimo peoples lived in isolation—despite periodic migrations of other populations—before suddenly vanishing 700 years ago, according to a study published last week (August 29) in Science.

This genetic analysis of 169 ancient and present-day humans used museum specimens of bones, teeth, and hair from Alaska, Canada, and Greenland; the researchers, led by Maanasa Raghavan and Eske Willerslev of the University of Copenhagen in Denmark, also sequenced the genomes of modern-day Native American, Inuit, and Aleutian Islander families to enable comparative analyses.

Their results showed that Paleo-Eskimos spread into the Arctic independent of Native American and Inuit migrations. Although it periodically abandoned the area, this Paleo-Eskimo population lived there in near-isolation for almost 4,000 years before disappearing. The team’s analyses also showed that modern-day Inuits are not directly related to these earliest settlers, suggesting that the ancient Paleo-Eskimo lineage did not vanish simply due to interbreeding.

“Elsewhere, as soon as people meet each other, they have sex,” Willerslev told National Geographic. “Even potentially different species like Neanderthals [and modern humans] had sex, so this finding is extremely surprising.”

Instead, this population may have developed medical problems as a result of continuous inbreeding, which may have contributed to their eventual extinction, Willerslev told The New York Times. Another potential factor may have been climate change, as periodic fluctuations of even a few degrees could cause a loss of marine food resources.

“By using genetics and genomics, they were able to answer questions that archaeologists have been trying to solve for decades,” anthropologist Todd Disotell of New York University who was not involved in the research told the New York Times. “With genetics, you’re looking at the ancient people themselves, not their refuse, so to speak.”

http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/40914/title/Arctic-Expansion/
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on September 09, 2014, 05:00:32 pm
LONG article. Recommended ONLY for those who are genuinely interested in this subject matter  ;D ---->  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-060914180936.jpeg)

Egyptian chronology and the Bible—framing the issues

Do the dates ascribed to the Egyptian dynasties falsify the date of biblical creation?

SNIPPET 1:
Egyptian chronology can be a challenging subject for biblical creationists. That’s because the secular, majority view about these chronologies extends further back than an objective reading of the biblical chronogenealogies allows for creation: a little over 6,000 years ago. These chronologies are hotly debated among Christians and secularists alike, with the consensus being increasingly challenged.

Moreover, some of the incredible Egyptian monuments like the great pyramids on the Giza Plateau have dates ascribed to them that would have them being built before the earth-reshaping Flood of Noah’s time around 4,500 years ago. Following a strict biblical chronology, Egyptian civilization cannot predate creation, nor can the pyramids be pre-Flood constructions.

This article (although lengthy) does not attempt to solve any of the seeming problems in aligning Egyptian chronologies with the biblical text with any great detail. But for the average layperson trying to understand Egyptian history, it is often a case of ‘Where do I start?’ ‘How do we align such things?’ There are so many names, dynasties and dates bandied around with seeming authority that it is a confusing topic to investigate.

Also, without some background or a framework to help the Christian gain some perspective on the issues, it is difficult to be discerning about any information that claims to solve the many mysteries that Egypt presents—and there are dozens of those from Christian researchers alone! Hopefully this article will help us realize that the issue is not as cut and dried as the secular community sometimes presents it. Nor does Egyptian civilization falsify biblical history as the skeptics would like us to think.


SNIPPET 2:

Egypt’s culture was preoccupied with death and the afterlife, which motivated them to produce many artifacts, many of which were subsequently preserved due to the coincidence of an extraordinarily hot and dry climate. As part of this obsession, they worshipped multiple false deities who they believed could interact and intervene in miraculous ways in the physical realm (in the nature of magic arts), and who could also enable a person’s transition to heaven.

Ancient Egyptians believed that one’s body, image, and name needed to be preserved in this world after death in order for them to enter and exist in the eternal realm. As such, Egypt developed a massive industry on dealing with death, and it became the pivotal part of their culture.

Most would be familiar with iconic famous sites like the Great Pyramids of Khufu, Khafre, and Menkaure on the Giza Plateau near Cairo and the Valley of the Kings near Luxor. These were, in reality, just magnificent tombs forming part of a massive necropolis complex. Pharaohs encouraged the idea that they were living incarnations of, or even born of, the deities that were worshipped in those days.

However, preservation of the dead body was not only important for royalty; ordinary people had to be preserved after death also and were often buried in simpler ways. It’s just that royalty and those who held high positions (overseers and nobles) possessed greater wealth that enabled them to construct more elaborate and grandiose places of burial befitting their ‘god-like’ status.

http://creation.com/egypt-chronology
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on September 10, 2014, 03:05:28 pm
Scans reveal new monuments at Stonehenge

A vast complex of monuments surrounding Britain's prehistoric Stonehenge site has been revealed using hi-tech underground scanning, archaeologists said on Wednesday (Sep 10).

LONDON: A vast complex of monuments surrounding Britain's prehistoric Stonehenge site has been revealed using hi-tech underground scanning, archaeologists said Wednesday. The mysterious circle of standing stones, on Salisbury Plain in southwest England, is one of the most iconic ancient sites in Europe and was long thought to stand alone.

But high-resolution scanning of the 12 square kilometres around it, penetrating three metres below the ground, has found it was surrounded by 17 neighbouring shrines. "Stonehenge is the most iconic archaeological monument, possibly along with the pyramids, on the planet," project leader Professor Vincent Gaffney told the British Science Festival in Birmingham, central England.

"Most of the area around Stonehenge is terra incognita. It has never been explored and everything we think about Stonehenge is on the basis of what we don't know about it. "This is going to change how we view Stonehenge. It is not yet another find from Stonehenge, it's a fundamental step forward in the way we understand it."

The four-year study used magnetometers - advanced metal detectors - ground-penetrating radar, electromagnetic sensors and three-dimensional laser scanners. It uncovered finds dating back 6,000 years, including evidence of 17 previously unknown wooden or stone structures as well as dozens of burial mounds.

They include giant pits, some of which appear to form astronomical alignments. The nearby Durrington Walls "super-henge", which has a circumference of nearly a mile (1.5 kilometres), was once flanked by up to 60 posts or stones up to three metres high, the scans showed.
Many burial mounds were found, including one barrow 33 metres long, within which signs of a giant timber building were found. It is suggested this was the site of complex rituals involving the dead, including the removal of flesh and limbs.

"This project has revealed that the area around Stonehenge is teeming with previously unseen archaeology and that the application of new technology can transform how archaeologists and the wider public understand one of the best-studied landscapes on Earth," said Gaffney. "New monuments have been revealed, as well as new types of monument that have previously never been seen by archaeologists."

A UNESCO world heritage site, Stonehenge is one of the most impressive prehistoric megalithic monuments anywhere due to its size, sophisticated concentric plan and architectural precision. It is suggested that the layout formed a theatrical arrangement, with Stonehenge gradually emerging from the landscape as visitors walked towards it on an ancient processional route.
- AFP/al

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/scans-reveal-new/1355996.html
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on November 03, 2014, 09:21:35 pm
The Last EXTINCTION: 4 sequential Nova videos on what happened around 12,900 years ago in a possible Cycle of Cosmic Catastrophes: Flood, Fire, and Famine in the History of Civilization.   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-310714182509.png)

Nice graphics!  (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/8.gif)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGT6csxV1TU&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWKeEkvRlbY&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kHN5lPjjzI&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDqnsm2WNKw&feature=player_embedded

Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on November 11, 2014, 10:33:54 pm
When fire really was renewable energy   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191456.bmp)
Quote

Home Life in Colonial Days

Alice Morse EARLE (1851 - 1911)

CHAPTER III[52]
 THE KITCHEN FIRESIDE

Snippet:


Quote
Many of our New England poets have given us glimpses in rhyme of the old-time kitchen. Lowell's well-known lines are vivid enough to bear never-dying quotation:—[73]


"A fireplace filled the rooms one side
With half a cord of wood in—

There warn't no stoves (tell comfort died)
To bake ye to a puddin'.

"The wa'nut log shot sparkles out
Towards the pootiest—bless her!

An' little flames danced all about
The chiny on the dresser.

"Agin the crumbly crooknecks hung,
An' in amongst 'em rusted

The old queen's-arm that granther Young
Fetched back from Concord busted."

To me the true essence of the old-time fireside is found in Whittier's Snow-Bound. The very chimney, fireplace, and hearthstone of which his beautiful lines were written, the kitchen of Whittier's boyhood's home, at East Haverhill, Massachusetts, is shown in the accompanying illustration. It shows a swinging crane. His description of the "laying the fire" can never be equalled by any prose:—

"We piled with care our nightly stack
Of wood against the chimney back—

The oaken log, green, huge, and thick,
And on its top the stout back-stick;

The knotty fore-stick laid apart,
And filled between with curious art[74]

The ragged brush; then hovering near,
We watched the first red blaze appear,

Heard the sharp crackle, caught the gleam
On whitewashed wall and sagging beam,

Until the old, rude-furnished room
Burst, flower-like, into rosy bloom."

No greater picture of homely contentment  :emthup:could be shown than the following lines:—

"Shut in from all the world without,
We sat the clean-winged hearth about,[75]

Content to let the north wind roar
In baffled rage at pane and door,

While the red logs before us beat
The frost-line back with tropic heat;

And ever, when a louder blast
Shook beam and rafter as it passed,

The merrier up its roaring draught
The great throat of the chimney laughed.

The house dog on his paws outspread
Laid to the fire his drowsy head,

The cat's dark silhouette on the wall
A couchant tiger's seemed to fall;

And, for the winter fireside meet,
Between the andirons' straddling feet

The mug of cider simmered slow,
And apples sputtered in a row.

And, close at hand, the basket stood
With nuts from brown October's woods.

What matter how the night behaved!
What matter how the north wind raved!

Blow high, blow low, not all its snow
Could quench our hearth-fire's ruddy glow."

Nor can the passing of years dim the ruddy glow of that hearth-fire, nor the charm of the poem. The simplicity of metre, the purity of wording, the gentle sadness of some of its expressions, make us read between the lines the deep and affectionate reminiscence with which it was written.   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191456.bmp)


Agelbert NOTE: Did you know many of the early New England Colonists lived in CAVES!!?  :P Ya didn't? Why not? Oh, you must have taken the American History that left that part out.  ;D And you thought cave people were just from the stone age, didn't ya?  (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_2932.gif)

How about the fact that the Franklin Stove was an idea that Ben got from the Germans who knew how to keep ALL the house warm instead of just the kitchen? In Dutch and English homes, prior to the use of a stove for heating and cooking, standing water would freeze in the bedrooms during the harsher parts of the winter.  :o  Yep. The Dutch and the English, after they moved out of the caves  ;D (they should have picked up on how efficient passive geothermal heat is but they missed that...),  were freezing their arses off in winter for nearly a century until the Germans brought their "new fangled" stove/heating device to the colonies.

Until then, everybody just cooked IN (not ON) the hearth. (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-036.gif) Forget all those pretty pictures of tidy, bricked fireplaces framed with a nice mantelpiece. ALL that came later.

The fireplace tongs and such were VERY long to keep the cook from getting roasted while she positioned the food here and there. And most, and often ALL, of the pots, pans and "Dutch ovens" had legs!

And get this! The town councils had to offer home owners to replace ALL THE NAILS in the houses when a person moved in order to keep people from burning down their homes in order to "harvest" the nails for use on the next house! Nails were rather expensive, you see. England was NOT fond of colonies being able to make their own "high tech" stuff.   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191258.bmp)

Do you want to know more? You can listen or read this book free and learn how it was REALLY done way back when. For those who think there is a future of going back to nature of the "collapse", this is a valuable education in the nuts and bolts of basic, low tech, but still civilized, living. ENJOY!

Audiobook here:
https://librivox.org/home-life-in-colonial-days-by-alice-morse-earle/ (https://librivox.org/home-life-in-colonial-days-by-alice-morse-earle/)

E-book here:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/22675/22675-h/22675-h.htm (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/22675/22675-h/22675-h.htm)
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on December 16, 2014, 10:40:06 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ob9TYJwz_g&feature=player_embedded
Food for thought.  8)
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on December 31, 2014, 08:53:05 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqp_H95wjPE&feature=player_embedded

The Miracle Of Terra Preta 

 A large pre-historic civilization is found in the central Amazon. Archeologists and scientists are shocked. The soil there is thought to be impossible to grow sufficient produce in. How could upward of a million people survive here, over a thousand years ago?

Could this be the elusive El Dorado, the city of gold?

 Because there is a kind of gold here, in great abundance: bio char, or black gold. The most fertile soil on earth. It's no accident. Bio char is not naturally occurring in nature, it must be cultivated by man.

Bio Char is an ancient method of enhancing soil fertility and carbon sequestration with charcoal and organic matter. It helps the soil retain water and increase crop yields. It enhances microbiological activity. It retains nutrients for plants that would otherwise be lost to the atmosphere, or washed away by rains.

 This could represent a key strategy in breaking the cycle of slash and burn farming, and restore our soil.

 Now we know how this civilization thrived. At 30 minutes into this presentation, the miracle of Bio Char is explained. There is an 880% increase in crop yields when bio char is used!

 And here is something we didn't know: The great civilization in the Amazon left a precious legacy. In the last 10 minutes of this documentary we learn that the stuff actually renews itself!

 If we can unlock the secret to reproducing this black gold, we can save the planet!

 --Bibi Farber

 This video was produced by the BBC
http://www.nextworldtv.com/page/26053.html#sthash.iZVKteBS.dpuf
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on January 22, 2015, 01:53:36 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF9MZsyq5o8&x-yt-ts=1421782837&x-yt-cl=84359240&feature=player_embedded
Published on Dec 2, 2012

This video claims proof that aliens had built a full civilized city on Earth before humans, and that Krishna was also an alien...   

What impresses me about the video is the fact that the underwater ruins of a large city off the coast of India appear to be about 32,000 years old!  :o
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on February 01, 2015, 09:21:54 pm
Quote
Calcite, aragonite and vaterite are pure calcium carbonate minerals. Industrially important source rocks which are predominantly calcium carbonate include limestone, chalk, marble and travertine.
Limestone and Marble
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_carbonate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_carbonate)
Results

Quote

These minerals make up more than 80% of the rock. Other common minerals include mica (muscovite and biotite) and hornblende (see amphibole). The chemical composition of granite is typically 70-77% silica, 11-13% alumina, 3-5% potassium oxide, 3-5% soda, 1% lime, 2-3% total iron, and less than 1% magnesia and titania.
Granite
https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADRA_enUS485US486&q=granite+chemical+composition (https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADRA_enUS485US486&q=granite+chemical+composition)

Around the turn of the century (not this last one but the one before that!), I imagine there was a bit of a commotion among British archeologists. You see, British archaeologist Sir Flinder Petrie published his study of "Pyramids and Temples of Gizeh".

(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-280115194757.png)
British archaeologist Sir Flinder Petrie worked in Egypt from 1880 for around 40 years. He credited the ancient Egyptians with methods that "we are only now coming to understand” (i.e. around 1900 by presenting evidence  in his study of "Pyramids and Temples of Gizeh" proving that the ancient Egyptians used tools such as straight saws, circular saws, and even lathes.). :o
(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-270115141559.png)
Possible British Royal Society Erudite, Measured, Prudent and Scientific Comments on the study: Do you mean to say that those Egyptian primitive savages could work stone like we can in England!!? Bollocks! Balderdash! Preposterous! The very idea is repugnant. SNIFF!

Look here Flinder, what would Darwin say? Evolution goes forward, my good man, not backwards! Where's my snuff box? James, bring me a glass of Port!

I must say Flinder, this is most irregular! I don't care what the Germans say, lathes were invented in England! (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/301.gif) Ancient Egyptians, you say?  ::) I hear people that spend too much time down there go balmy.   ;)  ;D

Quote
Machining technology was in its infancy in the early 1900’s, and it is only in recent decades that modern-looking machine tool marks in Egyptian workpieces have been fully recognized.
http://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-africa-opinion-guest-authors/forgotten-stones-aswan-quarry-egypt-001984 (http://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-africa-opinion-guest-authors/forgotten-stones-aswan-quarry-egypt-001984)

Here's small vase in the Petrie identified collection.
(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-010215163536.jpeg)
Beautiful Granite Vase dated to be from 2,800 BC or earlier

This one piece is so flawlessly turned that the entire bowl (about 9" in diameter, fully hollowed out including an undercut of the 3" opening in the top) balances perfectly (the top rests horizontally when the bowl is placed on a glass shelf) on a round tipped bottom no bigger than the size and shape of the tip of a hen's egg.

It's made of Granite. The attempted "debunking" of ancient Egyptian machine technology  (see Experiments in Egyptian Archaeology: Stoneworking Technology in Ancient Egypt by Denys A. Stocks) through the making of a few vases using hand tools was conveniently done on Limestone, NOT Granite. Yes, Limestone and Marble are made out of calcium carbonate (CaCO3). Granite has SOME CACO3 but has mostly other, much harder minerals. Limestone is relatively soft and easily HAND WORKABLE, whereas Granite and marble are much, much harder. PLEASE don't make me provide you with a hardness value, how hardness is determined by modern science and industry and how they measure it. Google it if you don't believe me and don't pull the hairsplitting stuff on me. I know of what I speak.

Also, PLEASE don't bring up potter's wheels.; they are USELESS for stoneworking.

Granite and Marble cannot be worked by hand to get the results Petrie observed and documented.  And even Limestone worked by hand cannot get the symmetrical tolerances observed in Egyptian workpieces. Denys A. Stocks produced some crude specimens (see pictures of his "craftsmanship" on the internet. LOL!). Stocks, of course  ;D, explained that, if he had years and years of training back in ancient Egypt, he would have certainly attained the quality and precision of the Petrie collection.
(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-010215144153.png)

Please observe the following "minor" detail about the pictured Granite vase:
(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-010215164542.jpeg)
Bottom of Granite Vase dated to be from 2,800 BC or earlier perfectly balanced on a flat surface.

This requires that the entire bowl have a symmetrical wall thickness without any substantial error! (With a base area so tiny - less than .15 " sq - any asymmetry in a material as dense as granite would produce a lean in the balance of the finished piece.)

NO, the bottom isn't SUPER THICK to produce balancing in spite of the "hand made asymmetry". Others have tried that hairsplitting, but logical, argument already. You can always go back to "those ancient craftsmen sure could make some great hand made stuff" speculation, of course. But don't call THAT science! (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_6869.gif) WE cannot DO THAT by hand NOW. That much, at least, is the accepted scientific consensus. The speculation by some Egyptologist archeologists that they COULD do that by hand in ancient Egypt is just that. But that's their story and they are sticking to it!

My response to this evidence free speculation cloaked as science:
(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-010215144837.png)

(http://pinetreeweb.com/petrie.jpg)
I am certain Sir William Flinders Petrie, grandfather of archaeology, who introduced science and methodology into the subject, would have scoffed at that speculation.
 (http://amerikaihirujsag.com/wp-content/themes/nextmagazine/inc/scripts/timthumb.php?src=http://amerikaihirujsag.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Sir-Flinders-Petrie-qpr.jpg&w=590&h=315&zc=1)
In 1892 Sir Flinder Petrie was appointed as Edwards professor at University College London, the first person to hold a chair in Egyptology in Britain.
Here's a google image search on Petrie collection vases:
https://www.google.com/search?q=petrie+collection+granite+vases&newwindow=1&rlz=1T4ADRA_enUS485US486&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=N6fOVP6lNcKfggSmxIHgCw&ved=0CFgQsAQ&biw=973&bih=394 (https://www.google.com/search?q=petrie+collection+granite+vases&newwindow=1&rlz=1T4ADRA_enUS485US486&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=N6fOVP6lNcKfggSmxIHgCw&ved=0CFgQsAQ&biw=973&bih=394)

Now let's move on to some large workpieces.

Ancient Egyptian Workpieces Evidence Advanced Technology

The language of science and technology doesn’t have the same freedom as speech. So even though the tools and machines have not survived the thousands of years since their use, we have to assume, by objective analysis of the evidence, that they did exist.

The precision in these artifacts is irrefutable. Even if we ignore the question of how they were produced, we are still faced with the question of why such precision was needed. Revelation of new data invariably raises new questions. In this case it’s understandable to hear, "Where are the machines?"

Machines are tools. The question should be applied universally and can be asked of anyone who believes other methods may have been used. The truth is that no tools have been found to explain any theory on how the pyramids were built or granite boxes were cut! More than eighty pyramids have been discovered in Egypt, and the tools that built them have never been found.

Even if we accepted the notion that copper tools are capable of producing these incredible artifacts, the few copper implements that have been uncovered do not represent the number of such tools that would have been used if every stonemason who worked on the pyramids at just the Giza site owned one or two. In the Great Pyramid alone, there are an estimated 2,300,000 blocks of stone, both limestone and granite, weighing between 2½ tons and 70 tons each. That is a mountain of evidence, and there are no tools surviving to explain its creation.

The principle of "Occam's Razor," where the simplest means of manufacturing holds force until proven inadequate, has guided my attempt to understand the pyramid builders' methods. With Egyptologists, there is one component of this principle that has been lacking. The simplest methods do not satisfy the evidence, and they have been reluctant to consider other less simple methods.

There is little doubt that the capabilities of the ancient pyramid builders have been seriously underestimated. The most distinct evidence that I can relate is the precision and mastery of machining technologies that have only been recognized in recent years.


Copper Chisels to work Granite?   ???


One can gather by reading Petrie’s work that he involved himself in some extensive research regarding the tools that were employed in cutting hard stone. Even so, there is a persisting belief among some Egyptologists that the granite used in the Great Pyramid was cut using copper chisels. I.E.S. Edwards, British Egyptologist and the world's foremost expert on pyramids, makes the following statement.

“Quarrymen of the Pyramid age would have accused Greek historian Strabo of understatement as they hacked at the stubborn granite of Aswan. Their axes and chisels were made of copper hardened by hammering.” (Edwards, I.E.S. Ancient Egypt, Page 89. (1978 - National Geographic Society, Washington, DC.)

Hopefully, besides mainstream Egyptologists, such as Mark Lehner and IES Edwards, (RIP) other Egyptologists do not suggest that the copper chisels, that can now be found in the Cairo Museum, were representative of the tools used to build the pyramids. If they were I would strongly suggest that they make an effort to learn about the materials and processes that they are proposing by actually creating one of these artifacts.

To identify copper as the metal used for cutting granite is like saying that aluminum could be cut using a chisel fashioned out of butter.
http://www.gizapower.com/Advanced/Advanced%20Machining.html (http://www.gizapower.com/Advanced/Advanced%20Machining.html)

Physical Cause and Effect Workpiece Machining in Ancient Egypt

What follows is a more feasible and logical method, and it provides an answer to the question of techniques used by the ancient Egyptians in drilling into granite.

The fact that the feedrate spiral is symmetrical is quite remarkable considering the proposed method of cutting. The taper indicates an increase in the cutting surface area of the drill as it cut deeper, hence an increase in the resistance.
(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-010215004844.png)

A uniform feed under these conditions, using manpower, would be impossible. Petrie theorized that a ton or two of pressure was applied to a tubular drill consisting of bronze inset with jewels. However, this doesn’t take into consideration that under several thousand pounds pressure the jewels would undoubtedly work their way into the softer substance, leaving the granite relatively unscathed after the attack. Nor does this method explain the groove being deeper through the quartz.

High Tech Tubular Drilling

Egyptian artifacts representing tubular drilling are clearly the most astounding and conclusive evidence yet presented to indicate the extent to which knowledge and technology was practiced in pre-history. The ancient pyramid builders used a technique for drilling holes that is commonly known as "trepanning."

This technique leaves a central core and is an efficient means of hole making. For holes that didn’t go all the way through the material, they reached a desired depth and then broke the core out of the hole. It was not only evident in the holes that Petrie was studying, but on the cores cast aside by the masons who had done the trepanning.

Regarding tool marks that left a spiral groove on a core taken out of a hole drilled into a piece of granite, he (Petrie) wrote,
Quote
"the spiral of the cut sinks .100 inch in the circumference of 6 inches, or 1 in 60, a rate of ploughing out of the quartz and feldspar which is astonishing."

After reading this, I had to agree with Petrie. This was an incredible feedrate (distance traveled per revolution of the drill) for drilling into any material, let alone granite. I was completely confounded as to how a drill could achieve this feedrate.

Petrie was so astounded by these artifacts that he attempted to explain them at three different points in one chapter. To an engineer in the 1880’s, what Petrie was looking at was an anomaly. The characteristics of the holes, the cores that came out of them, and the tool marks indicated an impossibility. Three distinct characteristics of the hole and core, as illustrated, make the artifacts extremely remarkable.

They are:

A taper on both the hole and the core.

A symmetrical helical groove following these tapers showing that the drill advanced into the granite at a feed rate of .100 inch per revolution of the drill.

The confounding fact that the spiral groove cut deeper through the quartz than through the softer feldspar.


In conventional machining the reverse would be the case. In 1983, Mr. Donald Rahn of Rahn Granite Surface Plate Co., Dayton, Ohio, told me that in drilling granite, diamond drills, rotating at 900 revolutions per minute, penetrate at the rate of 1 inch in 5 minutes.

In 1996, Eric Leither of Trustone Corp, told me that these parameters haven't changed since then. The feedrate of modern drills, therefore, calculates to be .0002 inch per revolution, indicating that the ancient Egyptians were able to cut their granite with a feed rate that was 500 times greater or deeper per revolution of the drill than modern drills.  ;D
The other characteristics also create a problem for modern drills. They cut a tapered hole with a spiral groove that was cut deeper through the harder constituent of the granite. If conventional machining methods cannot answer just one of these questions, how do we answer all three?

The application of ultrasonic machining is the only method that completely satisfies logic, from a technical viewpoint, and explains all noted phenomena. 

Ultrasonic machining is the oscillatory motion of a tool that chips away material, like a jackhammer chipping away at a piece of concrete pavement, except much faster and not as measurable in its reciprocation. The ultrasonic tool-bit, vibrating at 19,000 to 25,000 cycles per second (Hertz) has found unique application in the precision machining of odd-shaped holes in hard, brittle material such as hardened steels, carbides, ceramics and semiconductors. An abrasive slurry or paste is used to accelerate the cutting action.

Modern Stone cutters are Queried

I have contacted four precision granite manufacturers in the US and haven’t been able to find one who can do this kind of work. With Eric Leither of Tru-Stone Corp, I discussed in a letter the technical feasibility of creating several Egyptian artifacts, including the giant granite boxes found in the bedrock tunnels the temple of Serapeum at Saqqarra. He responded as follows:

Quote
"Dear Christopher,
First I would like to thank you for providing me with all the fascinating information. Most people never get the opportunity to take part in something like this. You mentioned to me that the box was derived from one solid block of granite. A piece of granite of that size is estimated to weigh 200,000 pounds if it was Sierra White granite which weighs approximately 175 lb. per cubic foot.

If a piece of that size was available, the cost would be enormous. Just the raw piece of rock would cost somewhere in the area of $115,000.00.

This price does not include cutting the block to size or any freight charges. The next obvious problem would be the transportation. There would be many special permits issued by the D.O.T. and would cost thousands of dollars.

From the information that I gathered from your fax, the Egyptians moved this piece of granite nearly 500 miles. That is an incredible achievement for a society that existed hundreds of years ago."

Eric went on to say that his company did not have the equipment or capabilities to produce the boxes in this manner. He said that his company would create the boxes in 5 pieces, ship them to the customer and bolt them together on site.

Agelbert NOTE: The above is a brief summary of a detailed article at the link below. There is much detailed information on stone cutting techniques.

Each and every one of the 'primitive tools did it' Egyptologist claims are dispassionately deconstructed to show they are based on evidence free conjecture, not science.

High Tech machine tools are the only explanation that fits. And that High Tech is right there with the best techniques we have for working these types of stones at present.
 
So you can imagine that Petrie, the fellow that first wrote about these Egyptian workpieces in 1880, did some serious head scratching at the time. Only NOW can we get those kinds of results in granite. 

Enjoy.  (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/reading.gif)
http://www.gizapower.com/Advanced/Advanced%20Machining.html (http://www.gizapower.com/Advanced/Advanced%20Machining.html)

The book "Experiments in Egyptian Archaeology: Stoneworking Technology in Ancient Egypt" By Denys A. Stocks explaining how the Egyptians used primitive tools to do what they did, including experiments he performed with copper and sand, have been proven insufficient to explain the smoothness, feed rate, striations and tolerances on the Egyptian workpieces.

The book, celebrated by Egyptologists, is full of "I suggest this" and "I imagine that" WITHOUT presenting how, at the drill rate and poor precision he was achieving with copper hand drilling, this massive work could have been accomplished.

So it goes. But perhaps some Doomers will accept it because Stocks is "Credentialed". Just Google it and be prepared for lots of calm, prudent, erudite baloney about how he FINALLY realized how EASY it was to do all this with primitive tools and what poor deluded FOOLS people who see evidence of high tech machine tools are. This arrogant mocking puffery is par for the course in the 'don't confuse us with facts, our minds are made up' "scientific" Egyptologist archeologist community.

I prefer evidence to consensus pseudo scientific cheerleading (more at link below).
http://www.grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=283526&t=282614&v=f (http://www.grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=283526&t=282614&v=f)

After studying the physical evidence from ancient Egypt and the facts about hand versus machine working of granite, marble or limestone workpieces, this is my response when someone claims the ancient Egyptians had no machines and achieved all their workmanship with copper hand tools and sand:
(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-010215143525.png)
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on February 01, 2015, 11:39:46 pm
Dr. Greer's tiny humanoid

I found a video by Dr. Greer that summarizes the findings. I stand corrected on the age at time of death; it was aged 6 to 8 years old at time of death, not 12.

Dr. Greer says there are possibly more specimens to be obtained. Dr. Nolan confirms that if more phenotypes identical to the humanoid are found, then it cannot be classified as an abnormality.

The GENOPTYPE (human female mitochondrial DNA only) DOES NOT match the PHENOTYPE (skeletal structure and size of the humanoid). But yeah, there is no proof whatsoever that it is an ET.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ0igIqTX7g&feature=player_embedded


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyhRaLNSEjI&feature=player_embedded

Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on February 05, 2015, 03:19:34 pm
Surly,
Excellent info!

Surly said,
Quote
... many of the pieces of evidence he cites can not be conveniently explained away.
(http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_0293.gif)


Quote
Such as this, from his FB page... Enjoy.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/10922852_10153082248237354_5623713398214808924_o.jpg)

Love that map! I'm saving it for some future debating fun.  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191258.bmp)  (http://us.cdn2.123rf.com/168nwm/lenm/lenm1201/lenm120100200/12107060-illustration-of-a-smiley-giving-a-thumbs-up.jpg)
Title: Rephaim is the Hebrew word for GIANTS
Post by: AGelbert on February 06, 2015, 12:52:19 am
(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-060215011125.png)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jx3vVSSfEs&feature=player_embedded
Evidence of giants is not limited to the Bible. Yet Archeologists do not admit the fact of their existence outside of describing them as "anomalies" or an infrequent  normal human genetic variation. WHY? ??? 

Is being a smaller and weaker Homo SAP an "evolutionary advantage" in nature?  (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TzWpwHzCvCI/T_sBEnhCCpI/AAAAAAAAME8/IsLpuU8HYxc/s1600/nooo-way-smiley.gif) Sure, you don't need as much food, but tell that to the animal predator that hunts you or the ruminant prey you hunt that outruns you!  :P If giants were common once, we little guys obviously whipped the big guys so you MIGHT say that little humans are more "fit" than the big ones. That makes sense ONLY if we outnumbered them massively because THEY were mostly wiped out by the catastrophic comet fragment strike about 12,000 years ago or some other unknown cause. The point is that if their numbers were similar to ours, we would not be here now. 8)

A smaller, shorter Homo SAP could be the result of DEvolution, not Evolution. If we are a shorter, weaker  version of what we once were, wouldn't Darwinian Theory (SET) supporting archeologists have a vested interest in denying it and ensuring skeletal remains were kept OUT of the museums?    (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-291014182422.png)   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-051113192052.png)

Quote
Question: "Who were the Rephaim?"

 Answer:  There are several passages in the Old Testament that speak of the Rephaim (or Rephaites), and the context describes them as giants. The name of these people literally means “terrible ones.”

The Hebrew word Rephaim has two distinct meanings: first, in poetic literature it refers to departed spirits whose dwelling place was Sheol. It is a figurative description of the dead, similar to our concept of a ghost. The second meaning of Rephaim is “a mighty people with tall stature who lived in Canaan.” The word doesn’t seem to be ethno-centric like “Jew” or “Egyptian” but is more of a descriptive term. This second meaning will be the focus of this article.

 The first reference to the Rephaim is Genesis 14:5, when the Rephaim, Zuzim and Emim people were defeated in a battle with Kedorlaomer and his allies. When the Israelites first approached the Promised Land after the Exodus from Egypt, they were afraid to enter the land because it was filled with “giants” (the word used in Numbers 13:33 is Nephilim), the sons of Anak. Giants were widely scattered through Canaan, but were known by different local names, including Rephaim, Zuzim, Emim, and Anakim. Deuteronomy 2:20–21 says the Rephaim were strong and tall, like the Anakites. Og, king of Bashan, was described as the last of the Rephaim in his land (Deuteronomy 3:11), and his bed was thirteen feet long and six feet wide.

Is it possible that the Rephaim were literal giants? The Septuagint uses the Greek words gigas and titanes (the source of the English titan) to translate these and other verses, so the ancient Jews certainly considered them to be giants. They are described generally as being between 7 and 10 feet tall and are called “mighty men.” The Egyptians wrote about giants who lived in the land of Canaan, and the folklore of other nations is full of such references. The people of the ancient world accepted the presence of giants as a fact of history, and the Bible presents them as enemies who were destroyed either by the judgment of God or in battle with men.

 So where did these giants come from? One theory, based on Genesis 6:1–4, is that fallen angels (the sons of God) had sexual relations with women, resulting in the birth of giants. This is remarkably similar to Greek and Roman myths about demi-gods, but the theory has some theological and biological obstacles. Another theory, also based on Genesis 6, is that the fallen angels, having knowledge of human genetics, indwelt certain men and women who would have the right traits to produce a race of giants and induced them to cohabit with each other. A third theory is that the giants were simply the result of normal genetic variability within a society. Whatever the origin of the Rephaim, it is certain that a race of “giants”—strong, tall people—did exist at one time, and many cultures had dealings with them. Even today, there are people who grow to extreme sizes, whether through genetic disorders like gigantism or through normal heredity.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Rephaim.html#ixzz3QwKEj5nH
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on February 07, 2015, 11:49:47 pm
Ashvin,
Man, was THAT weak. ::) - AND LONG! And then you don't want to take even 5 or ten minutes, never mind and HOUR, to watch some video or a portion of it I post here?  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191329.bmp)  You want me to wade through all this? I did. Talk about using a pack of claims (see the fallacious debating technique you accused me of using to "try to snow you  8)) to derail the central issue...   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714183312.bmp)


THE PARACAS SKULLS: ALIENS, AN UNKNOWN HOMINID SPECIES OR CRANIAL DEFORMATION?

Sources of dubious (and not-so-dubious) news on the internet have been getting very excited for the past week or so about some skulls from Paracas in south-western Perú. According to these sites, the skulls have been shown to have DNA that proves them not to be modern Homo sapiens but something else. Depending on the slant of the site, they are the remains of either an unknown but earthly species or aliens. Some sites make comparisons with the Starchild Skull, which has been touted as a human/alien hybrid. So just how reliable is the news? *

* Agelbert NOTE: Leading question used to set up DOUBT in the mind of the reader. An intelligent person stops reading right there. But I'm not too bright so I went on to see what they claim to have DISPROVING THE CLAIMS - Yeah, it's CLEAR right HERE that the aim of the article is to do a HIT PIECE on the Paracas skulls. (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191329.bmp)


Some significant admissions about the skulls by the article at the start to convince the reader that the writer is OBJECTIVE: (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9HT4xZyDmh4/TOHhxzA0wLI/AAAAAAAAEUk/oeHDS2cfxWQ/s200/Smiley_Angel_Wings_Halo.jpg)  ;)

Background

Quote

... best South American textiles ever found.

... quality of their grave gifts suggests that they were of high status

Comparisons have also been made between the later Paracas textiles and those of the Nasca Culture, suggesting another relationship.

It is generally accepted that the Nasca culture derives from the Paracas Necropolis Culture.

... cotton nets may be evidence for fishing.

Quote
So far, so good.   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191329.bmp)
Many of the high status burials of the Paracas Necropolis Culture have deformed skulls, which are usually believed to be deliberately induced using boards and weights. These result, in extreme cases, in skulls that are elongated into tall conical shapes. No two are alike and all are believed to have denoted high status in Paracas Necropolis Culture society.

Agelbert NOTE: The word "many" is a red herring to fool you into believing a little further down that ALL the cone heads are the result of cranial deformation. (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_2932.gif)

And "BELIEF" has nothing to do with it. Science has two designations for Homo sapiens cone head skulls, cranial deformation and cranial malformation; the former is forced and the latter is genetic. BOTH have the same brain pan size. HERE is where this article gets into perfidy territory.   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714183312.bmp)


SEE TYPICAL HIT PIECE RHETORIC:

Quote
Brien Foerster (described as a “Canadian-Peruvian anthropologist” by Amazon, although it would be more accurate to describe him as a tour operator), Childress suggests that the phenomenon is not one of cranial deformation.

Quote
.. the presence of a large wormian bone at the parietal/occipital interface is said to demonstrate  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191329.bmp)
the primitive nature of this people (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191329.bmp)

...Because of the high incidence of such bones among the indigenous peoples of the Andes, they are sometimes known as Inca bones.

Get it? You don't? You call the above "science"!!!? Inca=indigenous=primitive=cone heads= nothing to see here, move along.   (http://www.u.arizona.edu/~patricia/cute-collection/smileys/lying-smiley.gif)  Hey, the Spaniards were doing the, "Injuns are stupid savages" thing LONG before Darwin wanted to make monkeys of the "lesser races", pal!

Childress, Foerster and  Pye are all attacked with such "scientific" terms as "It appears that Childress and Foerster cannot adduce any recent ..." and "... ignorance of archeological dating techniques" and so on.

I am not going to waste time with these unprovable bits of defamation and character assassination. It is an established fact that carbon dating is ONE thing and DNA is another, MUCH HARDER, thing (getting usable DNA from a 2000 year old molar is quite difficult - getting the C-14 ratio is much easier). And even if it's just a modern DNA test to determine paternity. electrophoresis of fresh DNA is EASY compared with ancient DNA.  The author DELIBERATELY conflates the two in order to cast aspersions on Brien Foerster. Then he throws in lots of big words to show the readers that "knows what he is talking about".

Well, he DOES know how to do a hit piece. However, science deals with FACTS, not "it appears", "it is generally accepted" and so on. He does NOT know what he is talking about, chiefly evidenced by the FACT that he NEVER mentions cranial MALFORMATION! 

It's clear he is out to "get" Childress et al. His "This is a non-story" says it ALL. A true scientist would objectively request a thorough DNA study of hundreds of skulls based on the immense importance of finding evidence of a separate homind species that was honored so much that our branch tried to imitate it by forcing baby skulls into that shape. A true scientist would want to put all the claims to rest with evidence, no innuendo. This article is TRASH.

Some "interesting", but clever  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191329.bmp), phrase usages:
Quote

ENTER Lloyd Pye.

Brien Foerster managed to persuade...

...Lloyd Pye (1946-2013), a crank who believed in ancient astronauts, the extraterrestrial origins of humanity and, worst of all, the “Starchild Skull” as an alien/human hybrid

OF COURSE! ANYONE who "believes" (otherwise know as formulating a hypothesis that ancient peoples were contacted by ETs and proceeding to test it) ET "stuff" HAS to be a CRANK!. How scientific of the writer to help the reader KNOW which way the wind is blowng in this article. (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191329.bmp)
Quote
"This suggests that, ..." ,


That phrase is as unscientific as you can get in wanting to disprove a claim. The fact is that it is posted, not to DISPROVE the claim (because it has NOT been disproved), but to discredit the claimant. But the reader is left with the, very deftly placed, impression that Foerster and Pyle are con artists, whackos or both.

Yes, the author LOVES to SUGGEST. Such a scientific fellow...

Here's an EXCELLENT example of world class hit piece pseudo scientific doubletalk:

Quote
A Paracas skull: note the dimple toward the top of the head, which is a product of head-binding, depressing the suture between the parietal plates that Brien Foerster claims does not exist.

The above statement is TRUE! But the referenced skull is a head boarded or rope tied cranial DEFORMATION skull with what might be some trepanation! Whether Brien Foerster's claim applies to THIS skull (I seriously DOUBT IT!)  is not mentioned. How convenient.   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191329.bmp) At the start of the article, the author said "many". Yup, that is one of the "many". BUT IT"S NOT ONE OF THE FEW 20% larger brain pans sized NOT deformed  OR MAL formed cone heads!


Quote
It gets worse


IT SURE DOES. At this point he goes for the jugular to make sure the reader is left with a VERY bad taste in his mouth for the researchers. And it's all based on focusing almost exclusively on the Homo sapiens cone head deformation (with some "star child" fun thrown in to help the ridicule along   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191329.bmp)).



Quote
I am surprised that a geneticist would make this statement
  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191329.bmp)

MORE innuendo.  ::)

Quote
Now, this statement troubles me.


Quote
Well, our anonymous geneticist goes on to classify Sample 3A as “a new human-like creature”.


NOW the geneticist is taking the reader for a ride too? Never fear, our bold author will straighten it all out for you and then humbly claim he finds the conduct and announcements of the geneticist to be "curious"...

WHO THE **** IS THIS GUY WRITING THIS CRAP?

The OBVIOUS mocking, stuffed shirt tone
in this next paragraph is something that, along with all those nice big words, Ashvin swallowed hook, line and sinker.   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714183312.bmp)
Quote
So it''s not actually unrelated to the rest of the animal kingdom. That''s a relief.   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191329.bmp)  However, it’s “very distant from Homo sapiens, Neanderthals and Denisovans”, whatever that is supposed to mean. Neanderthals (Homo neanderthalensis) and Denisovans (exact species not yet determined, although members of the genus Homo) are extinct homininds whose distribution was restricted to Europe and western Asia: one would not expect to find them in South America. If the mtDNA of Sample 3A really is “very distant from Homo sapiens”, the only hominind so far known from the New World, does this mean that the geneticist considers it to be another species within the genus Homo or a member of an entirely separate genus. This is something I would expect them to give an opinion on and I find it curious that they apparently  :icon_scratch: have not.

What is even more curious is the statement that “I am not sure it will even fit into the known evolutionary tree”. This is  worryingly ambiguous and can be taken in two ways. It might mean that Sample 3A derives from a species whose position in the hominindin lineage cannot yet be determined, but which might one day. I suspect that this is not the intended meaning though. Given the thrust of the rest of the statement, I suspect that it is meant to imply that the mtDNA belongs to a species entirely outside the hominind  (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_6869.gif) lineage.

In other words, it's leaving open the possibility that we should regard the sample as deriving from an alien. There does not appear to be any consideration given to the likelihood that the odd features of the mtDNA recovered are not “mutations unknown in any human, primate or animal” but a result of contamination (after all, the skulls were excavated in the 1920s and we do not know the conditions under which they have been stored, how much they have been handled, whether any procedures have been used to stabilize them and so on) or errors in the laboratory


Get it? Question Darwin and you are whacko! The FACT that it is unrelated to a common sample of DNA MEANS more research is required, NOT that it is ALIEN, like the author tries to assume is the ONLY intent of the geneticist. And the old "contamination" TRICK is par for the course when a new finding contradicts the consensus (see Mary Shweitzer).  ;)

The author does NOT ask for more testing but, in fact, continues to state, with his constant fecal flow of words like "curious, worrying, and so on" that science is being corrupted and this is all carnival Ripley's Believe it or Not baloney.  (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TzWpwHzCvCI/T_sBEnhCCpI/AAAAAAAAME8/IsLpuU8HYxc/s1600/nooo-way-smiley.gif)


At the end, and quite conveniently, he IGNORES the FACT that widely dispersed human ancient primitive cultures practiced head boarding to distinguish their LEADERS.

He TOTALLY **** canned the "so far, so good" part of this article that DOVETAILS with the high status of cone heads in their societies, NOT just in Paracas. WHY? Because that was put there to adopt a guise of objectivity that the author lacks.

Quote
... best South American textiles ever found.

... quality of their grave gifts suggests that they were of high status

Comparisons have also been made between the later Paracas textiles and those of the Nasca Culture, suggesting another relationship.

It is generally accepted that the Nasca culture derives from the Paracas Necropolis Culture.


The stuff about what is "known" and what is not "known" about the Paracas cultures is irrelevant filler thrown in to confuse the issue.

 The issue is the skulls.


Quote


Altering the shape of the skull also alters its volume  ;), despite Foerster’s claim that it does not [edited 19.2.2014 by KJF-M]. 

Although small variations away from normal volume can be produced, they are not significant; however, while Foerster claims that the capacity of the skulls is too great for Homo sapiens, this is not the case: the Paracas skulls have an average capacity of 1600 cm3 and the human range is up to 1800 cm3 and they therefore fall well within the normal distribution range.
The above is the MOTHER LODE of duplicity. WHY?

Because MOST of the Paracas skulls are cranial deformations of Homo sapiens! (see any discussion of AVERAGE wealth in the USA!). "Well within capacity of 1600 cm3" is true of them on the AVERAGE.

But the ones that are NOT cranially deformed, and have what he claims is a "primitive" bone structure, have a  20% larger brain pan AND denser bone RIGHT NEXT to Homo sapiens cranially deformed cone heads that DO fit the normal brain pan range. This is typical doubletalk. He flat REFUSES to separate the "primitive" LOL! skulls from the others. He will NOT GO TO THE "it's another species" route, PERIOD!. How **** convenient!

He even threw BIGFOOT in at the end, LOL!

The finishing touches of "Nobody believes this guy. He's hurting for cash" and so on are really low class.   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714183312.bmp)

Quote
In summary, this is a non-story. (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_6961.gif)  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-291014182422.png)  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-051113192052.png)

There is nothing at all unusual  ::) about the population of the Paracas Necropolis Culture, apart from the extreme nature of the head-binding they practiced. (http://www.u.arizona.edu/~patricia/cute-collection/smileys/lying-smiley.gif)

 DNA or no DNA, they are fully human:  (http://www.coh2.org/images/Smileys/huhsign.gif) every aspect of their skulls can be explained in terms of genetics (such as the large wormian bone) (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_2932.gif)  and culture (such as the cranial deformation).  (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_2932.gif) Any statements to the contrary contain a mixture of deliberate deception, ignorance of anthropology, lack of archaeological knowledge and jumping to wild conclusions using “sketchy” data. They are not evidence for aliens  (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_0293.gif) or an otherwise unknown hominin species.   (http://www.u.arizona.edu/~patricia/cute-collection/smileys/lying-smiley.gif)  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191329.bmp) ;)
Who taught this guy to spell hominid with an "N" at the end?  :icon_mrgreen: I know, I'm being picky but, hey ,we ARE talking about human skulls and this guy claims to know is anthropology science, does he not?

Ashvin,
I already discussed the difference between cranial DEformation (rope or board cranial plate growth forcing)and cranial MALformation (genetic but still Homo sapiens) as well as the NON-rope or board cranial formation unrelated to MAL (genetic) formation. The artcle ignores the third, and most significant evidence.

Often in the Deformed cone head skulls (but not always), trepanation (making a small hole in the skull) was done because of pain from the cranial plates forced to grow in this fashion.

It has already been CLEARLY evidenced that MOST of the Paracas skulls are cranial DEformations with IDENTICAL sized brain pans to Homo Sapiens. MALformations are not evidenced there. Genetic MALformations of the cranium, according to dysmorphologist M.D.s that study cranial formation, always produce asymmetric skull plates (one side is shaped noticably different hat the other side). However, a small percentage (No Ashvin, not just ONE of them - there are several) have 20% GREATER brain pan size that Homo sapiens.

DEformed or MALformed skulls DO NOT have any appreciable increase in brain pan size OR skull weight. Your article pulls the old "average" skull capacity BULLSHIT to bypass the unique, un-Deformed craniums.

I do my homework. I consult medical science and mainstream archeology BEFORE I present the possible speciation evidenced by these other skulls. Whether they are or aren't ET is NOT the issue in regard to the skulls themselves. The ISSUE is whether they are a different hominid species.

IF they are a different hominid species, then, and only then, can we ask further questions about the FACTS, as established by our credentialed historians and archeologists, that:

1) Widely diverse "primitive" cultures (separated by oceans before transatlantic travel) practiced cranial deformation for tribal leaders. NO other practice like neck expanding, ear lobe enlarging, teeth sharpening, and so on, was practiced in widely diverse cultures. So please spare me the "primitives do weird things to distinguish their leaders" business. Yes, they do. BUT not on a worldwide basis UNLESS it was cranial deformation.

2) Wherever they were, they were leaders in the community as evidenced by funeral garb.


We CANNOT logically proceed to the next question until, or if, it is confirmed that the 20% greater brain pan sized (and higher bone density as well) cone heads (NOT DEformed and NOT genetically Malformed - they are symmetrical and show no signs of trepanation or cranial plate forcing distortions) is the product of hominid speciation.

THIS IS THE NEXT QUESTION THAT IS MOOT until all the above is confirmed:
Is their any evidence that they were ETs such as, but not limited to, written records, ancient schematics, knowledge of astronomy, a recovered flying saucer or part of one in a dig or high tech artifacts such as machines?

These articles with "enter this guy and enter that guy (liar for money!  ;)) are not germain when we HAVE skulls to test. **** the claims, pal! Let's get the DNA evidence for or against speciation. The rest is "he said, she said" propaganda used for the purpose of increasing the credibility of mainstream archeologists poo pooing a claim that calls their methodology and scientific integrity in to question while simultaneously casting aspersions on a non-credential individual investigating the cone heads.

YOU should NOT CARE, Ashvin, about what people SAY when you have skull evidence to analyze. The fact that the overwhelming majority of the skulls are BOTH deformed and show evidence of trepanation only means that MOST of those people where probably Homo Sapiens. Even that must be corroborated by DNA analysis.

A long article on deforming a skull 101 does not do **** to address the 20% larger brain pan size. Citing "average size does even less! And when that article starts attacking some non-credentialed researcher that might or might not be making a pile of money on the admittedly wild eyed idea that some of the cone heads were ET's, it's CLEAR that the article is a hit piece lacking objectivity and should be given circular file treatment.

I keep trying to get you to focus on the ANOMALOUS evidence. You keep trying to point at the portion that is run of the mill to establish the case that pecuniary motives of unscrupulous researchers "proves" the anomalous evidence is a fabrication. No it does not! Only DNA evidence does that. And the author of your article is allergic to DNA evidence.

So, let's stick to, "Are the GENUINE cone heads evidence of speciation or not?". Pointing at the money grubbers is a really tired tactic. But you give it an amazing amount of importance in formulating your conclusions so I will continue to emphasize the vacuity of using that possibility as a premise spring board to disbelieve all claims.

ARE THE CONE HEADS THAT ARE NEITHER Deformed or Malformed with 20% greater brain pan size and higher bone density evidence of a NON-Homo sapienshominid?

ONLY DNA analysis will answer THAT! The author of your article does not believe there is any evidence of hominid speciation.


Genetics is how real scientists address the issue of hominid speciation:
Quote
Gorillas are humans' closest living relatives after chimpanzees, and are of comparable importance for the study of human origins and evolution. Here we present the assembly and analysis of a genome sequence for the western lowland gorilla, and compare the whole genomes of all extant great ape genera. We propose a synthesis of genetic and fossil evidence consistent with placing the human-chimpanzee and human-chimpanzee-gorilla speciation events at approximately 6 and 10 million years ago. In 30% of the genome, gorilla is closer to human or chimpanzee than the latter are to each other; this is rarer around coding genes, indicating pervasive selection throughout great ape evolution, and has functional consequences in gene expression.  We also compare the western and eastern gorilla species, estimating an average sequence divergence time 1.75 million years ago, but with evidence for more recent genetic exchange and a population bottleneck in the eastern species.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22398555 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22398555)

In other words, speciation evidence is found ONLY in the DNA. But the author of your article says, QUOTE  "DNA or no DNA, they are fully human:..." UNQUOTE

And you believe him.   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714183312.bmp)

The video below is very nuts and bolts.   (http://us.cdn2.123rf.com/168nwm/lenm/lenm1201/lenm120100200/12107060-illustration-of-a-smiley-giving-a-thumbs-up.jpg) It's only 21 minutes and covers all the bases NOT covered in the article Ashvin posted.

Outside of his hair style  :P (which is not conducive to the awarding of Nobel Prizes  :icon_mrgreen:), I feel the speaker is credible, honest and forthcoming about what he can prove and what he cannot prove. The interviewer asks the right questions. enjoy.  (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-032.gif)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3jXqzp716A&feature=player_embedded
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on February 09, 2015, 01:07:25 am
I have been pondering the following question:

If I was an Egyptian 5,000 years ago and I wanted to make a stone surface really, really flat, how would I go about it? (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191404.bmp)

Well, let's see now, what is the flattest surface I have ever seen in my life in the land of the Nile (no jokes, ya hear? This is serious business! I'm trying to do some high tech stuff with low tech hand jobs - Wipe that smile off your face! (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_6869.gif)  ;D).

Flat tires? NOPE, they didn't have tires. Flat women? NOPE, the human anatomy can be subject to certain bits of low class humor but it is, according to Stephen Hawking, definitely not macroscopically flat, never mind near microscopically flat. Therefore being flat-assed broke is not applicable to this bit of scientific inquiry. And when I knocked my stone cutting supervisor flat, he still made a lumpy appearance laying on the ground. :(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714183312.bmp)

You see, we had a bit of a discussion about "flatness".  (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/3ztzsjm.gif) He said my work is not flat enough for Pharaoh standards. He said a lot more than that but this is PG discussion.  ;)

The altercation aside, what my stupidvisor did was pour some water on the workpiece I am putting my heart, soul and most of the copper and sand in Egypt into! That water did NOT run off my workpiece.    (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/8.gif) I stared at the stupidvisor and told him, this is flat!   (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/301.gif)

HE smirked and went over to three nondescript areas of my piece and said, NOPE! Those areas were slightly drier than the rest of the piece.  :(  :P He said the water must look the SAME over the entire piece without running off at minimum thickness or I may find myself in the salt mines soon where high caliber precision is not required...  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191329.bmp)

I let him have it. POW, right in the kisser! It's a good thing he is my sister's half cousin or I would be Nile crock food right now.  8)

After I apologized and promised to work on the slight imperfections, he took out his hair measuring gizmo and showed me some places in the stone where there were depressions in the water a few hairs DEEPER than the acceptable Pharaoh stone flatness standard.  :P

That means I have to work the WHOLE PIECE down to those levels.   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714183337.bmp) (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714183337.bmp) That means another two months to get this 43 cubit rock up to snuff instead of a few days. And never mind the amount of copper I need for THAT!   (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-020.gif)

My stupidvisor did not smirk again but he did say all my lunch breaks were cancelled until I got these 43 cubits by 14 cubits exactly RIGHT! (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_6869.gif)
GROAN!  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714183312.bmp)

Egypt sucks! I'm going to the twenty first century and pretend this never happened!   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191258.bmp) i]


The point of the above thought exercise is to try to think like an ancient Egyptian. The flattest thing they ever saw in their entire lives was the surface of water in a pool with no wind. That IS pretty flat. Is it microscopically flat? I'll let you know when I do some research. Of course, they had ICE in those days too. BUT NOT IN EGYPT unless the climate was much different han it is now:
Quote

Climate of Egypt

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Egypt essentially has a hot desert climate (Köppen climate classification BWh). The climate is generally extremely dry all over the country except on the northern Mediterranean coast which receives more rainfall in winter. In addition to rarity of rain, extreme heat during summer months is also a general climate feature of Egypt although daytime temperature are obviously more moderated along the northern coast.

The prevailing winds from the Mediterranean Sea continuously blow over the northern coast without the interposition of an eventual mountain range and thus, greatly moderate temperatures throughout the year. Because of this effect, averages low temperature vary from 9.5 °C (49.1 °F) during wintertime to 23 °C (73.4 °F) to summertime and averages high temperatures vary from 17 °C (62.6 °F) during wintertime to 32 °C (89.6 °F) in summertime.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Egypt)

So only some wild dudes that went in reed boat ships to colder places had ever seen ice. And when they DID see it, it was moving around a lot.  :emthdown:

There are a few rocks, like flag stones, that naturally split into fairly flat surfaces. Perhaps the Egyptian craftsmen had seen flagstones. But flagstones are okay to walk on put they crap compared with Egyptian workpieces. Nevertheless, the ancients had a THING fro making their stone cut surfaces extremely flat. That certainly makes sense if you are going pile one on top of the other and wish to get a building or pyramid that doesn't resemble a drunken sailor.

Assuming (now I'm getting in trouble here for sure.  :icon_mrgreen:) that the REASON the ancient wanted their work to have a flat surface was because they wanted to put other pieces on top, then there would be no need to make the SIDES equally as flat, right? Wrong?

Sure, aesthetically, a nice long rectangular solid is more pleasing than one with wavy walls but this is something that is important in analyzing what they did and why they did it.

We know they OBVIOUSLY quarried the stones. We know where the quarry is (about 500 miles from the main monuments to this that and the other ET ;D  giant gods that preferred sitting to standing - AHA! Scientific proof that the Egyptians were pretty laid back. Settle down Ashvin, I'm kidding!  ;)).

Now if they used the handy dandy hair meter I invented ex nihilo in my quest to come up with a LOW TECH device they could have had back then to measure flatness, they needed to combine it with the molecular adhesive quality of water to create a thin film over a flat surface. No, they didn't need to understand molecules to know water is rather flat and, if it doesn't run, the surface it is on is really flat.

Water, because of its hydrogen bonds, WILL try to go "uphill" with the surface because it is attracted to itself. However, it will thin out somewhat (water is VERY elastic - I know this because I have studied tree transpiration - water in the tracheal capillaries of a tree can be stretched to 1/26th or so of it's normal density AS LONG as the vacuum holds inside the tree - That's how it climbs up to the leaves from the roots - Test on Monday.  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191258.bmp)) . A craftsman with a good eye will see the water thinned out in some areas and, with a hair gage, could find depressions that the human eye could not detect. Yes, the "hair" gage would have to be treated with a hydrophobic substance (a bit of olive oil might do it!) to keep the water molecules from climbing up the gage and ruining the reading, so to speak.

But once they got the TOP surface so flat that they needed to attack Cyprus (the copper mining mecca of that time period) because they were going through the copper stash like there was no tomorrow, they would HAVE to rotate the workpiece so all four sides, one at a time, became the TOP for flattening.

Well Doomers, do you think this would work? Has anybody done the math on the amount of copper and sand they need to do what they did? Everyone knows sand is abrasive. It is abrasive BECAUSE it has some very hard rocks in it. Yes, it has soft rocks that wear away too but THOSE aren't the ones that make sand do what it does. If you don't believe me but talcum powder on your sand paper.

Stocks' hypothesis is that there was enough copper, combined with the aid of sand abrasives, to do all this by hand. With the water technique I dreamed up, perhaps it is possible IF hey had enough copper and IF they had enough man power NOT tied up in growing food or whipping the slaves into shape. Egypt was NOT exactly a "life of leisure" for anybody but the Pharaoh (and the "priesthood" of course - those guys always have an angle (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191329.bmp)   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191258.bmp) ).

The biggest elephant in the Stocks hypothesis (he alleges they did it by hand by using copper tools to drill limestone, producing rather crude - by ancient Egyptian standards, work. He also has not demonstrated successfully that the copper and sand technique works on Marble or Granite) is TIME. The time it is estimated those monuments took to complete is way too low, in my opinion, for the massive amount of product, as evidenced by so much expertly cut stone laying around, of many, many flat surfaces and circular drilling.

How long did it take to build these things? That is really important. They need skilled craftsmen working quickly for, say, a 25 year period with machine tools. They needed perhaps a century or more to do it by hand with quite a bit of labor dedicated exclusively to this effort. Yes, the monuments were apparently built at different times and on different schedules so it is a huge bag of worms to try to pin it down.


I'll get back to you on how flat water adhesion on a flat surface can achieve as far as tolerances. If you van get .01 or better, that may be how they did it. But I don't have an answer to the extremely precise circular drilling and the feed rate consistency, the lathe quality work when they weren't supposed to have them and for the machine tool marks.

Eddie, you do a lot of drilling. Help me out here. I made a hollow "drill bit" out of some copper tubing to drill some wood years ago for a project I was working on (needed a big bit). I hacksawed some teeth on it and went to town. It lasted about 3 days. Harwood eats copper pretty quick.  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191258.bmp)   I used a power drill. If it had been by hand with some sand, maybe I would get more out of it but I do not see how copper can work successfully on marble or granite, even if you have an unlimited supply from Crete or Cyprus (or whoever they plundered to get copper in those days - I'm sure it wasn't free!) to throw at it.   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191404.bmp)
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on February 09, 2015, 03:51:06 pm
Quote
I have no f***ing idea. LOL.

I do question the efficacy of soft metal cutting instruments on hard stone (even with an added abrasive), although I'm no expert on quarrying or drilling rocks. It does sound iffy to me. They did cut them somehow, with some kind of tech. I'd posit we haven't yet considered all the possibilities.

Even aliens would have had their work cut out for them.


Eddie said,
Quote
Even aliens would have had their work cut out for them.
   (http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/2thumbs.gif)      (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/4fvfcja.gif)
  (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/funny.gif)

(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/AGgW9B718b8/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Is the surface of water ever "perfectly" flat?
Post by: AGelbert on February 09, 2015, 07:15:23 pm
Excellent discussion of precision flatness in water and molten tin too!

Full thread is at this link: (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/reading.gif)
http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/is-the-surface-of-water-ever-perfectly-flat.105777/

Strantor
Is the surface of water ever "perfectly" flat?

Before anybody goes off on a bent about "perfectly," let me explain; No, I'm not an Indian graduate student. When I say "perfectly" I mean by a machinist's standards; does it pass the test of a surface plate's flatness spec (like accurate to .0001").

 I know there's either a concave or convex meniscus at the edge, and I know that the surface of the water will follow the curvature of the surface of the earth. But what I don't know, is if I were able to "freeze" (not as in freeze by cold temperature turning it into ice, which would change the size & shape, but "freeze" as in magically make it turn instantly solid without morphing) a bathtub full of water, would I have a "perfectly" flat surface in the middle, say 1" in from the edges? Or would it still have some radius (a tigher radius than the earth's radius) to it, like it's just the surface of one giant water droplet that just happens to be in a bathtub?


Glenn Holland
Except for surface tension at the edges and with no motion, the surface should be almost flat.

 Other liquids such as molten tin exhibit near flatness and the surface can be used as a reference and also a mold for casting other flat shapes. s an example, plate glass is made by applying molten glass over the surface of molten tin.


BR-542
In your bathtub example, in theory, the inside surface area would have a curvature to it. It would be slight. The curvature would have a radius R, to the center of gravity of the earth.

 You can get damn close with a machined surface to true flatness.

 Probably the closest we can get to flatness is.........a stretched sheet of graphene.


MikeML
Dont forget about the Moon's gravitational attraction.


BR-542
Absolutely. The first bathtub curve will be modulation by a second and inverse curve with radius r.....to the center of gravity of the moon.


#12
I once had a conversation with a structural engineer about using a water level vs a laser level on a large building. Something like 1000 feet and you're out of spec for, "flat" with the water level.

 He never answered me. Probably because his daddy was an engineer and "forced" him to get a 4 year degree. It worked. He's financially secure and can't figure out how structures were built before lasers were available.

 Anyway, I did the math to get the 1000 foot number, and you can too...if you care enough.
 X^2 Y^2 Radius = 4000 miles etc.
Do the math and find out how flat bath tub water is!


Strantor
Alright I'll take a stab at it, but first, ...
 If you're looking for level, I say, a hose full of water is the only thing that's going to give you a true level.
 If you use a bubble level or laser, you're shooting two tangent lines out from your position on the face of the earth, into space. if you were run your level or laser in either direction along that line, as soon as you leave dead center (where you took the measurement), you're going to be off by more and more ****hairs the further you go out.

So, having said that, I'll use the Distance to the Horizon formula in order to determine the difference between FLAT and LEVEL, at 1000ft.
 distance to horizon formula:
 d = 1.22h
 d = distance in miles
 h = height in ft

 Rearrange to solve for h:
 h=d/1.22
 h=0.1894mi/1.22 = 0.15525ft = 1.863"

 Now confirm with Pythagorean theorem:
(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-090215193625.png)
 A^2+B^2=C^2
 436,957,148,390,400ft2 + 1,000,000ft2 = c^2
 C=20,903,520.02391941642909571014096ft

 C-A = 0.02391941642909571014096ft = 0.287033"

Big difference there. I suspect the Pythagorean theorem is the closer one to correct. What was your number?

 Anyway, same Pythagorean method substituting in my 4ft instead of your 1000ft, yields .00000459253" over 4ft. Good enough for me ;)


Agelbert NOTE: Me too! Water is REALLY FLAT!  :o  8) The question is, HOW could the ancient Egyptians, who probably were quite good at math before Pythagoras (thanks to ET  ;D previous knowledge from maybe the Sumerians), make use of this BETTER THAN .001" water flatness precision?

Water WILL follow rock surface contours to a degree. So, on a planed marble surface, it will not be as flat as in a still pool of water. But there is a limit to high much it will climb before it starts stretching and thinning out.

I'll get back to you.  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-060914180936.jpeg)


(http://www.oocities.org/unforbidden_geology/copper_slabbing_saw_dry_sand_abrasive_experiment.jpg) (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-300714025456.bmp)  (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TzWpwHzCvCI/T_sBEnhCCpI/AAAAAAAAME8/IsLpuU8HYxc/s1600/nooo-way-smiley.gif)
Man, those ETs ancient Egyptians were smart "copper" using cookies, weren't they
Ashvin?  ;D 



Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on February 09, 2015, 11:53:34 pm
(http://extraterrestrialcontact.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Egyptian-Skulls-Elongated-11175skulls.jpg)
The Egyptians wore funny hats to fool people into thinking they had weird, but SYMMETRICAL, upper crust status skulls.  Now where have we seen THAT before?   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191258.bmp)

But if the top brass really had skulls shaped like that, as the EVIDENCE supports (Google it!), and they were NOT  cranial deformations or malformations but the result of genetic modification, a little knowledge (to put mildly!  (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/301.gif))  of transfer DNA in LIFE processes might have helped get that result.  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-051113192052.png)
The Ankh looks like the Transfer DNA molecule. What better way to communicate to posterity that you knew a thing or three about GMOing a human?  :icon_mrgreen:
(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-090215233226.png)
(https://verumetinventa.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/d524a-ankh1.jpg)
The ankh (/ˈæŋk/ or /ˈɑːŋk/; Egyptian: IPA: [ʕaːnax]; U+2625 ☥ or U+132F9 𓋹), also known as breath of life, the key of the Nile or crux ansata (Latin meaning "cross with a handle"), was the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic character that read "life", a triliteral sign for the consonants ꜥ-n-ḫ.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh)

SNIPPET from a 2005 article:
U.S. Denies Patent for a Too-Human Hybrid

by Rick Weiss, Washington Post
February 13th, 2005

The decision letter to Newman notes that many people have heart valves from pigs. A patent has even issued on the use of baboon cells in people to aid in organ transplantation. Those procedures, the letter says, "did not convert the human patient to a non-human."

Similarly, mice that have up to 1 percent human brain cells in their skulls are clearly mice, said Stanford University biologist Irving Weissman, one of the scientists who helped make hybrid rodents.

The tricky part, all agree, is what to do with the middle ground. Weissman and others, for example, have talked about their desire to make mice whose brains are made entirely of human brain cells.

A preponderance of "H"'s Greely, a professor of law and director of Stanford's Center for Law and the Biosciences, said even those animals would not seem very human to him. "But a chimp brain with human neurons. . . ."

That's exactly the kind of scenario that makes Rifkin, Newman and others want a total ban.

"If the U.S. Congress and president are not willing to do this now, then there is no door that will remain closed to an era of commercial eugenics," Rifkin said. "We'll be on our way to that brave new world that Aldous Huxley warned us about."

Leon Kass, chairman of the President's Council on Bioethics, agreed that Congress should at least get involved.

"The patent office is not the place for society to make its moral decisions," Kass said.

Weldon, the Florida representative, said he is interested in providing such guidance -- and believes the public would favor restrictions.

"There's instant public revulsion when you start talking with the average person about this stuff." For starters, Weldon said, "I'd like to ban the creation of human embryos with animal genes in them."

But many scientists fear that Congress is likely to overreact.

"There are chimeras out there that serve very valuable purposes in medical research, such as mice that make human antibodies," said Michael Werner, chief of policy for the Biotechnology Industry Organization. "This is sufficiently technical scientifically that it should be left to scientific bodies like the National Academy of Sciences to decide." (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-300714025456.bmp)

http://www.geneticsandsociety.org/article.php?id=1581 (http://www.geneticsandsociety.org/article.php?id=1581)
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on February 10, 2015, 03:32:02 pm
(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-100215152646.png)
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on February 10, 2015, 08:45:04 pm
UB said to Ashvin,
Quote
Your evidence presented  by Fitzpatrick is all ad hoc and ad hom and totally unprofessional, several people have noted this including the comment by "John" he downvoted but did not repond to. He sets up a website called "Bad Archaeology" Capitals are appropriate as a proper noun for HIS site. He then goes on to repeatedly refer to OTHER peoples work as "Bad Archaeology" not even "bad archaeology" which would be bad enough. But it seems it is his best shot at smug superiority and assorted appeals to irrelevant technicalities such as Hancock not knowing what species of spider is shown carved on rock instead of addressing how the hell the giant spider picture got there.

Exactly. And then Ashvin tries to turn it all around and claim we are the ones who lack objectivity. Also, what you mentioned about how Ashvin switches between the macro and micro to dance is par for the rhetorical course in fallacious debating techniques. Then he claims I am "accusatory" and going al "ad hom" on him. Nope. I just want him to stop dancing. He won't do it.

The fact I believe the ET presence is real does not have jack sh it to do with the EVIDENCE presented by Graham Hanc ock, who DOES NOT hold the "ETs taught humans how to draw maps" theory ( or any other 'ETs are here' theory, for that matter - but Ashvin likes to group the "con artists" for effect.

As Eddie said (and I had mentioned it previously too)
Quote
Graham Hanc ock is not a UFO guy, really. I haven't read his books, but none of the videos I've seen tries to make a case for ancient astronauts or anything of that sort.

But it is QUITE important for Ashvin's argument to cast me as an "ET true believer sans evidence" even though I took pains to show him the logical steps in the premise; ALL of which he has STUDIOUSLY avoided discussing with his micro to macro and back dance.  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191329.bmp)
As I said a couple of pages ago:

Quote
I do my homework. I consult medical science and mainstream archeology BEFORE I present the possible speciation evidenced by these other skulls. Whether they are or aren't ET is NOT the issue in regard to the skulls themselves. The ISSUE is whether they are a different hominid species.

IF they are a different hominid species, then, and only then, can we ask further questions about the FACTS, as established by our credentialed historians and archeologists, that:

1) Widely diverse "primitive" cultures (separated by oceans before transatlantic travel) practiced cranial deformation for tribal leaders. NO other practice like neck expanding, ear lobe enlarging, teeth sharpening, and so on, was practiced in widely diverse cultures. So please spare me the "primitives do weird things to distinguish their leaders" business. Yes, they do. BUT not on a worldwide basis UNLESS it was cranial deformation.

2) Wherever they were, they were leaders in the community as evidenced by funeral garb.

We CANNOT logically proceed to the next question until, or if, it is confirmed that the 20% greater brain pan sized (and higher bone density as well) cone heads (NOT DEformed and NOT genetically Malformed - they are symmetrical and show no signs of trepanation or cranial plate forcing distortions) is the product of hominid speciation.

THIS IS THE NEXT QUESTION THAT IS MOOT until all the above is confirmed:
Is there any evidence that they were ETs such as, but not limited to, written records, ancient schematics, knowledge of astronomy, a recovered flying saucer or part of one in a dig or high tech artifacts such as machines?

Then Ashvin claims this is ALL ABOUT ETs. :evil4: Sure, Brien Foerster includes it in the possibilities (that Ashvin views as  a premise that is number umpteen on the priority list of possibilities  ;)). But Brien Foerster has said, QUITE CLEARLY, that  the evidence has NOT proven in any way whatsoever that the skulls were ET. How many times does Ashvin have to be told this to understand it?  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191404.bmp) They have found DNA in the New York SUBWAY TUNNELS that matches no known organism. SO WHAT? That doesn't mean they are ET bugs on the subway tunnel walls! I continue to claim that Ashvin keeps parading the ET thing here as a rhetorical tool used to undermine the credibility of the researchers dealing with ancient civilizations and their level of advancement. Then he accuses me of attacking the messenger.

Ashvin has not answered the questions posed with evidence. Yet he claims that is sufficient to counter them.  (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_2932.gif)

I beg to differ. And I will continue to differ. Notice I posted two screen shots with questions and he completely ignored them (about Plato and about the Rephaim). This is called glossing over. Then he gets pissed when I point at his glossing over.     (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191258.bmp)
:

PLEASE ADDRESS THE FOLLOWING TWO QUESTIONS, ASHVIN:


Ashvin, did PLATO make this STRANGE SH IT up?  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191404.bmp)

(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-040215155259.png)

How about the Hebrews? Did they make up this STRANGE SH IT too?      (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191404.bmp)

(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-060215011125.png)


Ashvin, please address the following two claims by Eddie:

Eddie said,
Quote
I'm only willing to make two claims.
1.  Graham's take, that it is likely that there were one or more somewhat advanced civilizations that probably got wiped out in Younger Dryas flooding, seems to make some sense.

2. UFO and alien type stories exhibit uncanny parallels with ancient glyphs and cave paintings, and would seem to be associated with shamans and the inner world described by those who have ingested plant entheogens, like Ayahuasca.

Eddie,
The two points you make are quite adequate to the task of cornering Ashvin logically. He has not countered either one. (http://us.cdn2.123rf.com/168nwm/lenm/lenm1201/lenm120100200/12107060-illustration-of-a-smiley-giving-a-thumbs-up.jpg)
Ashvin said,
Quote
I didn't bring Antarctica into the discussion, UB did after reading a sentence in the BA post. I couldn't have anticipated that he would bring that up. That being said, YES, I do think that is a very weak part of their arguments. Please do go into that and the South American boundaries too, if you want.
You mockingly asked if a portion of a map looked like Antarctica. DON'T DENY IT.

As to maps, when I went to photo interpreter school many years ago, I studied cartography including Lambert conformal conic, Mercator and so on. I understand how distortions build on maps. As I pilot, I had to know ho to read maps rather well. (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191258.bmp)

In pre-accurate time piece times, they could draw coastlines okay but locating them was a bit of a challenge, to put it mildly. The guy that made the Piri Reis map ADMITTED it was a copy with several iterations from the original! He was no ET. Handcock says a past high civilization of HOMO SAPS obtained the cartographic info and it was passed down, PERIOD.

It being that you have some QUESTIONS to answer on this post, I will make a separate post on the Piri Reis map with an explanation of the projection issue. If you want to haul in another hit piece "debunking" Piri Reis as a fraud, there's plenty of them on the internet.

I suggest you do a little more checking on what you post here than some "Bad Archeology" hit piece heaven. UB is far more patient and learned than I am and will continue to deconstruct disingenuous claims presented. (http://us.cdn2.123rf.com/168nwm/lenm/lenm1201/lenm120100200/12107060-illustration-of-a-smiley-giving-a-thumbs-up.jpg) ;D

I await your answers to the above questions.  8)
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on February 13, 2015, 02:03:30 am
Evidence that Demands a Verdict:
The Consensus Historical View that Piri Reis used South American Coastline maps made by Columbus

Christopher Columbus (Italian: Cristofero Colombo; Spanish: Cristóbal Colón; Portuguese: Cristóvão Colombo; born between 31 October 1450 and 30 October 1451, died 20 May 1506) was an Italian explorer, navigator, and colonizer, citizen of the Republic of Genoa.


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/ColombusNotesToMarcoPolo.jpg)
Quote
Cristofero Colombo's handwritten notes in Latin, on the margins of his copy of The Travels of Marco Polo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus)

Explorers need maps. So Cristofero began scrounging around for maps, after being inspired by Marco Polo (keep that in mind, please  8)), that would help him in his quest.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Atlantic_Ocean%2C_Toscanelli%2C_1474.jpg)
Quote
Toscanelli's notions of the geography of the Atlantic Ocean, which directly influenced Columbus' plans.
Columbus estimated the distance from the Canary Islands to Japan to be about 3,000 Italian miles (3,700 km, or 2,300 statute miles). The true figure is now known to be vastly larger: about 12,500 km.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus)

First KNOWN map by Cristofero Colombo. This map is quite logical. It covers what Cristofero actually knew before he hitched a ride on the trade winds on the good ships ""Saint Mary" (real name - all ships were named after saints), the "Pint" or "Painted lady", depending on the translation, and the  "Young Girl" (non saint names were probably nicknames - test on Monday  ;D).

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/ColombusMap.jpg)
Quote
Mapa de Cristóbal Colón. Lisboa, taller de Bartolomé y Cristóbal Colón, hacia 1490.
Christopher Columbus map. Lisbon, workshop of Bartolomeo and Christopher Columbus, c.1490
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus)

Who in the world would've ever known
What Columbus could do
If Queen Isabella hadn't hocked her jewels
In fourteen ninety two! (it's a song Ashvin. Settle down!).  :D

http://www.songlyrics.com/jimmy-jones/good-timin-lyrics/ (http://www.songlyrics.com/jimmy-jones/good-timin-lyrics/)

Queen Isabella's timing was good, but in regard to the Piri Reis map, Cristofero's timing was not. 

So off he went with his crew of fear filled sailors.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/LaPinta.jpg)
Replica of the Pinta. I actually walked on it and talked to a sailor that made the Atlantic crossing (imitating Columbus) on this replica in 1992. A voyage on this vessel is NOT for the feint of heart. It is VERY small for a transatlantic vessel!  :o

Quote
The New World was first sighted by Rodrigo de Triana on the Pinta on October 12, 1492.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinta_(ship) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinta_(ship))

Voyages of Columbus

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2495/3874835820_bec27c8d37.jpg[)
First voyage 1492



(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbl7j3L45O1qhsqm1o1_1280.jpg)
All four voyages

(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-110215022816.png)
More detail of the four voyages. Ashvin, PLEASE observe how far SOUTH Columbus went.  8)

Quote
Columbus always insisted, in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary, that the lands that he visited during those voyages were part of the Asian continent, as previously described by Marco Polo and other European travelers.[9] Columbus' refusal to accept that the lands he had visited and claimed for Spain were not part of Asia might explain, in part, why the American continent was named after the Florentine explorer Amerigo Vespucci and not after Columbus.[40]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus)

That's NOT all, folks. Cristofero died in May of 1506 DENYING the existence of the "New World". That is a historical FACT, Ashvin.

Was Cristofero keeping some land area map knowledge a secret?   (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/tuzki-bunnys/tuzki-bunny-emoticon-026.gif) I don't think so. But there is "evidence" out there that serious scholars (this is not a joke, pal) accept/swallow/claim/push (and so on) that makes absolutely no sense unless Cristofero was a world class liar and insane too. Yet no serious scholar has called him a liar or an expert in shooting himself in the foot and face.  ???  I'll get to that later on.

Mapping South America


Mapping the east coast of South America, especially in those days when some native tribes along the east coast were quite warlike, is a rather time consuming task. It is safe to say that in 1504, from Cristofero's last sighted point on down, said coast had NOT been mapped by humans yet, right?  Wrong. Well, that's what serious scholars state, so I guess that's what you believe too, Ashvin. I agree. But the serious scholar historical doubletalk is in the details, so to speak.
Let's take the last bit of South American coastline that Cristofero sighted on his third voyage. That was the southernmost point in his four voyages. After the fourth voyage he died without added coastal mapping knowledge beyond what he had mapped.
Guyana = 459 km
Brazil = 7,491 km
Uruguy=  660 km
Argentina = 4,989 km
Total 13,599 km = 8,500 miles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_length_of_coastline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_length_of_coastline)

Going back and forth from Europe to South America must be added to the length of time such a herculean task as mapping the east coast of South America would take. 

Back to Cristofero, he mapped most (not all - he did not map a large part of  Cuba and part of what is now Haiti) of the Caribbean islands and part of Central and South American coast in FOUR voyages at varying intervals from 1492-1504. Islands have a lot of coastline so he was quite busy. In 12 years, he mapped approximately 3,500 km (2,187 miles) of coastline.
Vespucci is credited with mapping the coast of eastern  South America south of Cristofero's last point at about 10 degrees south latitude (Guyana).
(http://www.uh.edu/engines/vespucci.gif)
Vespucci voyages NOTE: Vespucci turned north back to Spain, on his voyage down the east coast of South America, 400 miles north of Tierra de Fuego.
http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1350spanish.htm. (http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1350spanish.htm.)

Then we have the Balboa voyage discovering the Pacific (1510-1513). Observe that he did not go further south than Columbus. Balboa is considered the FIRST Conquistador.
Early Voyages of Exploration 1492-1609 (http://www.phschool.com/atschool/ahon/history_interactive/mvl-1021/common_player.html)

But, SO WHAT? Hadn't Vespucci mapped the eastern coast of South America in 1501-1502?  My answer is a DEFINITIVE NO! The "serious" scholar historians are quite satisfied that my claim is false.

The historical record also is clear that Vespucci DID NOT go back to South America after that voyage. Magellan (1519) was the next explorer that took Vespucci's route.

Let me be clear. I'm not saying Vespucci did NOT sail down the coast to approximately 400 miles north of Tierra de Fuego before turning home to Spain. I AM saying his mapping was a cursory job with only the most salient details in his map.

It's a LONG coast. He did NOT know when it would end. He had warlike tribes to deal with if he got too close to the coast (something you HAVE TO DO to map on the relatively tiny vessels of the day with much shorter masts than the tall ships that came centuries later).

You need a daily sun shot to get your latitude at noon and some sort of time keeping to figure your longitude too. It's been a while since I've studied it but is NOT something he could have done quickly, no matter how skilled Vespucci was.

There's also the weather to deal with. ANY TIME it rained, he could NOT map accurately and had to drop anchor until he could see the sun at noon for latitude (for longitude the stars and/or preferably the moon were needed along with the time piece, of course - so rain at night was a pain too!).

And then there were his trip provisions. He had a certain amount of time before he HAD TO turn back to Spain, regardless of what he could forage for on land.

Finally, there were the carreer advancement goals of Vespucci. Columbo was still the big dog when Vespucci became convinced,   on his second voyage (http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1350spanish.htm), that this was a "new world". He needed to get back to the king to gain favor for his hypothesis. He was a smart cookie (For any scholar reading this: No, I will not stop using pedestrian "man in the street" common terms, language and expresions that make scholars sniff in derision when they read my work. I rather enjoy using vocabulary that communicates reality rather than some ivory tower, high brow, erudite fuddy duddy,  self aggrandizing prose.).

My contention is that Amerigo Vespucci did a RUSH JOB on the eastern South American coast. More on that later.

That brings us to 1513 and, you guessed it   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191258.bmp), the Piri Reis map.
(http://www.crystalinks.com/piriresimap_southamerica.jpg)
Piri Reis map next to current land mass photo. 
Ashvin, there is NO WAY in God's GOOD EARTH that ANYBODY could have mapped 8,500 miles, or even HALF that much, of South American coastline, brought it to Spain, sold a copy to the Turks and enabled Piri to get his dibs on it, never mind reconciling the other maps he had access to and produce the Piri Reis map by 1513!

By 1550, sure. The Spaniards were going to town on the injuns down there by then. They surely had to have the coastlines mapped to find who to torture or enslave for God and Country next (along with knownin' where the ORO and PLATA was too!) (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/pirates5B15D_th.gif). 

But our serious scholars are having none of that post 1510 (that's right 1510, NOT 1513! ) business. (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/237.gif)(http://www.pic4ever.com/images/bc3.gif)  (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_6961.gif)  (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/fly.gif) No sir! It has been accepted by historians that 1513 is the actual date the map was finished.   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191258.bmp)

Quote
The map was signed by Piri Reis, an Ottoman-Turkish admiral, geographer and cartographer, and dated to the month of Muharram in the Islamic year 919 AH, equivalent to 1513 AD.[12][13] It was presented to Ottoman Sultan Selim I in 1517.[4][14]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis_map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis_map)

Our SERIOUS SCHOLARS in this wikipedia article, and EVERY serious historical reference to this EMBARRASSING Piri Reis map (discovered in 1929),  CLAIM that Piri used maps from Cristofero Colombo!

You know, that guy that went to his grave claiming there was no "new world" (see Marco Polo fixation).
You know, that guy that got one upped by Amerigo Vespucci for that very reason!
You know, the guy never got south of about 10 degrees north latitude in all four voyages!


And you claim these "serious" scholar historians (and you) rely on the "BEST" explanation!!!? ???

(http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2009/347/2/6/WTF_Smiley_face_by_IveWasHere.jpg)


Quote
In the map's legend, Piri inscribed that the map was based on about twenty charts and mappae mundi.[15][16][17] According to Piri, these maps included eight Ptolemaic maps, an Arabic map of India, four newly drawn Portuguese maps from Sindh, Pakistan and a map by Christopher Columbus of the western lands.

From Inscription 6 on the map:

From eight Jaferyas of that kind and one Arabic map of Hind [India], and from four newly drawn Portuguese maps which show the countries of Sind [now in modern day Pakistan], Hind and Çin [China] geometrically drawn, and also from a map drawn by Qulūnbū [Columbus] in the western region, I have extracted it. By reducing all these maps to one scale this final form was arrived at, so that this map of these lands is regarded by seamen as accurate and as reliable as the accuracy and reliability of the Seven Seas[18] on the aforesaid maps."[19]

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Piri_reis_world_map_01.jpg)
Quote
Surviving fragment of the Piri Reis map showing Central and South America shores. In his notes appended to it (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-051113192052.png) is written "the map of the western lands drawn by Columbus"[1]

Piri Reis map
Quote
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Surviving fragment of the Piri Reis map showing Central and South America shores. In his notes appended to it is written "the map of the western lands drawn by Columbus"[1]

The Piri Reis map is a world map compiled in 1513 from military intelligence by the Ottoman admiral and cartographer Piri Reis (pronounced [piɾi ɾeis]). Approximately one-third of the map survives; it shows the western coasts of Europe and North Africa and the coast of Brazil with reasonable accuracy. Various Atlantic islands including the Azores and Canary Islands are depicted, as is the mythical island of Antillia and possibly Japan.

The historical importance of the map lies in its demonstration of the extent of exploration of the New World by approximately 1510 (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TzWpwHzCvCI/T_sBEnhCCpI/AAAAAAAAME8/IsLpuU8HYxc/s1600/nooo-way-smiley.gif), and in its claim to have used Columbus's maps  (http://dl8.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1238/1238988d68zgywbnq.gif)  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-241013183046.jpeg), otherwise lost, as a source. It used ten Arab sources, four Indian maps sourced from the Portuguese and one map of Columbus. More recently it has been the focus of pseudohistoric claims for the premodern exploration of the Antarctic coast.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis_map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis_map)

Magellan DID travel along, and map, the east coast of South America beginning at a point midway down the coast of Brazil, but he began this voyage in 1519!

What about the Ashvin style "best" explanation logic that the Piri Reis map, if Vespucci didn't produce it, is a backdated Magellan map?  (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_2932.gif)

The Piri Reis map could not have been a "backdated" Magellan piece BECAUSE of two reasons:


1) The Piri Reis map shows the coast of Guyana and Brazil AFTER the last point Columbus sighted and BEFORE the point in Brazil where Magellan sighted land.

2) Magellean mapped the coast from the point he sighted land to the Strait of Magellan, and kept going WEST. His maps DO NOT twist the southern part of South America to the right.


(http://libweb5.princeton.edu/visual_materials/maps/websites/pacific/magellan-strait/map-magellan-strait-pigafetta.jpg)
1520 Strait of Magellan map

Quote
Magellan’s 1520 transit of the strait took thirty-eight days, many of them spent scouting and discounting alternative paths through the labyrinth. The following expedition in 1525, led by the Spanish nobleman Garcia Jofre de Loaísa, required four and a half months to solve the strait’s puzzle. As a result, the commander recommended that Spain abandon using the route to reach the Pacific. Henceforth, most Spanish expeditions to the Pacific were launched from their ports on the western coasts of Central and South America.

The first English venture through the passage—in a speedy seventeen days—was that of the privateer and circumnavigator Sir Francis Drake in 1578. Exiting into the Pacific, his expedition met fierce winds that pushed his ships south and east to a latitude of about 57° S, where they were surprised to find open water. (Later, this serendipitous discovery was named the Drake Passage; it offered the possibility of a more southern route around South America.)

Final half  in next post on this thread. (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/reading.gif)
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on February 13, 2015, 03:11:52 am
Second and final part of:

Evidence that Demands a Verdict:
The Consensus Historical View that Piri Reis used South American Coastline maps made by Columbus

(http://libweb5.princeton.edu/visual_materials/maps/websites/pacific/magellan-strait/map-magellan-strait-quad-1600.jpg)
Corneille Wytfliet’s map of 1597

Quote
It wasn't until 1616-1624 that the the southern tip of South America was mapped.
The discovery of the Le Maire Strait and Cape Horn by the Dutch mariners Jacques Le Maire and Willem Corneliszoon Schouten in 1616 at last provided explorers and merchants with a viable alternative to the vagaries of the Magellan Strait.

(http://libweb5.princeton.edu/visual_materials/maps/websites/pacific/magellan-strait/map-magellan-strait-bertius-1602.jpg)
Quote
Published before the Dutchmen Jacques Le Maire (1585–1616) and Willem Corneliszoon Schouten (d. 1625) rounded Cape Horn (1616), the map shows the Strait of Magellan separating Patagonia and Tierra del Fuego, which still was considered to be part of a vast southern continent. The charm of the map lies in its depiction of Patagonian giants, the mythical   (http://www.coh2.org/images/Smileys/huhsign.gif)   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191258.bmp)  race of large people first mentioned by Antonio Pigafetta in his chronicle of Ferdinand Magellan’s voyage.  Bertius’s note next to the illustration states that the giants can reach ten feet in height   :o and that they paint their bodies in various colors from diverse herbs.  ;D

Quote
It was not until 1624 that another Dutch explorer, Jacques L’Hermite, charted the islands and waters around the cape, proving that Cape Horn was really an island.

Quote
Rounding Cape Horn, of course, would prove to have serious weather issues of its own—ones that continue to confront and confound sailors today—but it would become the preferred transoceanic route for sailing ships for centuries to come.

(http://libweb5.princeton.edu/visual_materials/maps/websites/pacific/magellan-strait/map-magellan-strait-gerritsz-1630.jpg)
Quote
Gerritsz., Hessel, 1581?–1632. “Provincien van de Straet van Magallanes, ende vande Straet Le Maire.” Copperplate map, with added color, 27 × 35 cm. From Joannes de Laet’s Nieuwe wereldt . . . (Leiden, 1630). Acquired with funds provided by the Friends of the Princeton University Library. Reference: Martinic, Cartografía magallánica, VIII, 89. Historic Maps Collection

Oriented with north to the right, the map explodes the long-held belief that Tierra del Fuego was attached to a southern continent. Fifteen years after the circumnavigation of Le Maire and Schouten, Hessel Gerritszoon, the official mapmaker for the Dutch East India Company, is able to show the alternative route navigators can take to reach the Pacific from the Atlantic: around Cape Horn via the Strait of Le Maire.

The last map in this series I will present is a truly beautiful map. It's truly a work of art, as well as exceptional cartography. Put the establishment is not altogether happy with it.

This is an excellent example of serious historians engaging in conjecture and clever suggestions of PROPAGANDA when the data does not fit their historical paradigm. 

Whenever a serious scholar wants to undermine the credibility of some map data and/or annotation, they use descriptive terms like "mythical", "incongruous", "propaganda", "alleged", "unproven", etc.

What's wrong with that, you (or Ashvin  ;D) might ask?  (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9HT4xZyDmh4/TOHhxzA0wLI/AAAAAAAAEUk/oeHDS2cfxWQ/s200/Smiley_Angel_Wings_Halo.jpg) They are just being prudent, measured, serious (and so on), RIGHT?   (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/126fs3187425.gif)

WRONG! It is, in fact, quite the double standard! WHY?  ???  Because, in regard to exactly the SAME map, they will use descriptive terms such as "Tour de force", "elegant", "detailed", etc. to support (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/19.gif)  the accuracy and credibility of the cartographer!   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-291014182422.png)

(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-120215001540.jpeg)
Quote
1675: Wit, Frederik de. “Tractus australior Americæ Meridionalis, a Rio de la Plata per Fretum Magellanicum ad Toraltum.” Copperplate map, with added color, 48 × 54 cm. From Wit’s Orbis maritimus ofte zee atlas. Amsterdam, 1675.  Reference: Martinic, Cartografía magallánica VIII, 121. Historic Maps Collection

One of the most elegant and detailed charts of southern South America produced in the seventeenth century. The map continues the now archaic, headland view of Cape Horn but offers a much fuller picture of the west coast of Chile, identifying many capes and ports. In the Atlantic, an unspecified Dutch naval battle takes place.

The dramatic cartouche, however, is the tour de force of the map (see the map detail): a meeting between Dutch merchants and natives (Patagonians or Fuegians?) who are mining, refining, and molding what appears to be gold. The onlooking animal with the spiral horns looks like a blackbuck antelope, native to India, or even an eland or oryx from Africa—but is out of place in South America.

At the time of this map, the continent was a literal gold mine for Spain, and Dutch commercial interests were focused on the East Indies.

Hence, this iconography seems incongruous: one would expect to see Spanish conquistadors and Peruvian Indians portraying their contemporary master/subject roles. Here, the scene suggests that a new deal or trade could be made.

Perhaps the artist/cartographer is dramatizing the possible rather than the status quo in a work of Dutch propaganda.
Princeton University collection and history of South American maps made by Magellan and those who came after him:  (http://libweb5.princeton.edu/visual_materials/maps/websites/pacific/magellan-strait/magellan-strait-maps.html)

In short, the cartographer from centuries ago is JUDGED to be perfectly honest, thorough and accurate AS LONG as he tows the present "serious" historian paradigm. Any departure from that is poo pooed with erudite puffery.  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714183312.bmp)

That is not serious scholarship. Yet Ashvin NEVER even considers the possibility of interpretative perfidy among "serious" scholars. The fact that scholars ALWAYS use careful language blinds Ashvin and others to their paradigm turf protecting duplicity. They use it sparingly to preserve their credibility but do not hesitate to invent long screeds of logic free discourse to demonize any revisionist history that questions their paradigm. But they are so polite about it!

Consequently, NOBODY  is allowed to consider the possibility of mens rea because academics are, OF COURSE, not affected by peer pressure, establishment line towing, tenure considerations, social climbing, status and money.  SNIFF! (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/ugly004.gif) (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/290.gif) Oh no!

It's all those pseudo historians out there that that are immediately suspect... BALONEY!  >:(  News flash! The higher up on the civilizational hierarchy a human is, the MORE PRONE he is to engage in mendacity, duplicity, perfidy and fraud to DEFEND the status quo. But our credentialed "priesthood" must always be sanctified while anybody questioning, with data and evidence, their paradigm gravy train is demonized and ridiculed (see double standard on steroids  :P).

And all the while, these logic challenged credentialed meat heads have the audacity to claim they will change their views with "sufficiently valid" evidence that their paradigm requires a shift to understand the data. I don't think so. It is not hard to change the paradigm because of lack of evidence; it's hard because of ossified, stubborn and pride filled status quo turf defending. (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191329.bmp)

Of course it's part of human nature. But, if we were logical and reasonable about this, we would, given that power and position CORRUPTS, look with a more jaundiced eye at the establishment pooh bahs than women or men (like me  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191258.bmp)) that just want the honest God's historical truth to be accepted, regardless of who's pride is hurt by looking like a world class turf protecting reprobate.

I don't think any of the maps or mapmakers presented here are deliberately inaccurate or mendaciously annotated in any way, shape or form. (the Piri Reis NOTES allegedly APPENDED to the Piri Reis map are another matter).
And YEAH, Ashvin, that INCLUDES those rather large natives Magellan saw in Patagonia! They are NOT on alleged NOTES APPENDED to the map; they are written on it! (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/301.gif) But I KNOW what your reaction to Magellan's eye witness account will be.  (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_6961.gif) (http://www.websmileys.com/sm/fam/fam12.gif) ANYTHING that doesn't fit your paradigm is "not relevant" to the "best" explanation so you will use your rhetoric to   (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/Banane21.gif) away from it.  ;D

The Piri Reis map has the South American coast twisted to the right with no gap at the end, giving the, PROBABLY MISTAKEN, impression to a modern cartographer that it was mapping Antarctica. I am not convinced of the Antarctica mapping but that's neither here nor there. I have some theories about why that is if you want to hear them (it has to do with the accuracy of the available time pieces of the mappers).

CONCLUSION

It is IMPOSSIBLE for Columbus to have provided the map info credited to him by Piri Reis in the "NOTES APPENDED TO IT" (the map), as serious scholars claim because.

1) No European explorer was THERE to map eastern South America in this DETAIL until AFTER 1519!

2) Even if Cristofero had lived past 1506 and sailed to map said coast, he wouldn't have had enough time to map 13,599 km = 8,500 miles of coastline, get it to Spain and hand it off to the Turks!


But you believe them. Fine and dandy, Ashvin, you have lots of company in your beliefs. But that's all they are.

Cabot went out in 1497 but it was much farther north than Columbus (Newfoundland).

Cortes starts out in 1519. Pizarro in 1531 and Hudson in 1609. END OF STORY.


Check all voyage geography and dates HERE:
Early Voyages of Exploration 1492-1609 (http://www.phschool.com/atschool/ahon/history_interactive/mvl-1021/common_player.html)

When the accurate, indisputable data (I know, MISSION IMPOSSIBLE for an adversarial lawyer  ;)) does not fit the paradigm, a shift in the paradigm is required. Vested interests and the scholarly historical consensus do NOT want to undergo a paradigm shift BECAUSE that requires eating a LOT OF CROW and rewriting history.

They rightly fear that the pseudo-historians and scam artists will have a field day if the credibility of serious scholars is undermined BY serious scholars.
 
But that's just turf protecting, not logic or serious scholarship.(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-141113183729.png)  No amount of clever rhetoric by you or anybody else can disguise that. The scam artists will always be there. That is NOT an argument for disingenuously inventing the baloney that Cristofero Colombo provided the South American map data to Piri Reis.

Among the pseudo historians there is a subset of "pseudo" historians (i. e. Serious, truth searching historians - something you REFUSE to believe) that have pointed to the truth. Serious scholars don't want to give them the time of day for the reasons I have stated, but serious scholars have PECUNIARY reasons as well. Try not to forget that when you attack the credibility of an author (i.e. claim they are ruled by conscience free greed instead of truth) based on the fact that he is making a buck by writing revisionist history.

And spare me the "true believer" motive you pejoratively ascribe to me for writing these pieces. This is my work. I am not quoting Hapgood, Hancock or anybody else. So feel free to claim I am not "credible" because I am not credentialed.  (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_2932.gif)

That argument works well in a court room but not in a debate where truth is more important than sophistry. 
No, I DO NOT think that ET gave Piri the map info. LOL! ET would have space age mapping photographic quality accuracy. The Piri Reis map DOES NOT have that level of accuracy, but there is NO QUESTION that the coastline is South America's east coast. And time travel is impossible, as far as I'm concerned. I think we can agree that the Columbus mapping ships were not time machines.   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191258.bmp) Columbus did NOT map the coastline of eastern South America below 10 degrees north latitude.

What you SHOULD be doing now Ashvin, instead furiously Googling "Piri Reis map fraud" and "pseudo history of Piri Reis map" (and so on) is asking yourself WHERE did Piri Reis get the indisputably accurate, according to modern maps, coastline map information of eastern South America below 10 degrees north latitude. Cristofero Columbo never went there.

But I know you well, Ashvin. You are going to bring up good old Amerigo Vespucci. You are going to bring up the serious scholarly claim that Vespucci DID map the coast of South America from Guyana on down between 1500 and 1502. And then you are going to put two and two together and get the 1510 "historically accepted level of knowledge" that Spain had of South America.

You are going to claim that Amerigo Vespucci, named by the king to be top dog on "New World" (that term Cristofero was allergic to) exploration procedure and authorized by said king to set up a school to teach explorers how to map and how to navigate, of course shared this South American map knowledge with Cristofero Colombo and his brother Bartolomeo, who shared the work of running the the same "taller" (map workshop) the Colombo brothers ran.

The last link in this trail of serious scholarly logic is that after Cristofero's death in 1506, Bartolomeo made a few (more like a LOT!) of pesetas selling a copy (Maps were INCREDIBLY EXPENSIVE and tenaciously guarded in those days of early exploration because of the ORO and PLATA filled lands explorer/conquistador/plunderers who had them could navigate to.) to Piri Reis. 

My, what a gem of reasonableness and plausibility. Is that is your "best" explanation? With a few insignificant variations, that is what serious historians claim.

The accepted historical paradigm that, in 1510, the knowledge of South America indisputably displayed on the 1513 Piri Reis map was the level of mapped knowledge by European civilization at the time is inaccurate. It is a fairy tale. It is a willful denial of the evidence. It is a deliberate distortion of the truth in order to defend the claim that Piri Reis got his info from the Spaniards. It is an absolute scandal that they persist in this fantasy.

CLOSING ARGUMENTS

1) There are some serious scholarly historian issues with Amerigo Vespucci. While alive, he was QUITE secretive about what he knew and who he shared his mapping info with. This was, of course, normal for that time period.

I present that fact to you in order for you to understand the context of the data that historians question. You will find that one of his "voyages" is considered fictitious by historians due to letters Vespucci allegedly wrote of his "four" voyages, conveniently discovered many years after his death, that turned out to be forgeries. So the exact details of his voyages are STILL, unlike Cristofero's voyages, a matter of historical conjecture.

But aren't his maps evidence of his voyages? Somewhat, but they are a BIG FAIL in confirming he had anything to do with the Piri Reis map.  I told you I'd get Vespucci's RUSH JOB and now we are here.  ;D

There is a 1507 map ( a German one) that claims the data for "America" (what is now South America) and the Caribbean came from Vespucci (and Colombo too). It does not show the track of the voyages of Vespucci or how many of them there were. And by the way, that's how South America was the first to receive the name "America".
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Waldseem%C3%BCller_quadratic.jpg)
Quote
Waldseemüller’s 1507 map of America re-drawn on an equirectangular projection and on the same uniform scale as that of Schöner of 1515, so as to be readily comparable (E.G. Ravenstein, Martin Behaim: His Life and His Globe, London, George Philip & Son, 1908, p. 36).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldseem%C3%BCller_map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldseem%C3%BCller_map)

Here's another one from 1515 (a little late for Piri Reis and looking just as coarse as the Waldseemüller 1507 map)..
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Sch%C3%B6ner_quadratic.jpg)
Quote
Schöner’s 1515 map of America re-drawn on an equirectangular projection and on the same uniform scale as that of Waldseemüller of 1507, so as to be readily comparable (E.G. Ravenstein, Martin Behaim: His Life and His Globe, London, George Philip & Son, 1908, p. 36).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldseem%C3%BCller_map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldseem%C3%BCller_map)

2) If the above two maps showing South America ARE from Vespucci's mapping efforts, as serious historians have accepted, it is evidence of a RUSH JOB. But serious historians don't accept it was a rush job. I wonder why.  ;) As I previously mentioned, the mapped coastline is far too lengthy to have been mapped at the required detail in in time to get the data to Spain and Piri Reis before 1513.

3) Even if the above two points could be explained away somehow, there is the further "problem" for the serious scholars that the Andes mountain chain is accurately portrayed for a distance on the Piri Reis map. Balboa was somewhat near there between 1510 and 1513 when he discovered the Pacific Ocean but he was too far away to sight the Andes in his location in Central America. The Andes were NOT discovered by Balbo. Pizarro discovered and began mapping them in 1533.

4) The Piri Reis map shows that the Amazon river tributaries begin on the east side of the Andes mountain chain and join to make the Amazon river. Yes, the distance from the mountains to the delta is inaccurate. So? The point is there is no way Vespucci could have guessed the Andes were there or that the head waters were west-southwest of the delta.

Yes, Vespucci mapped the Amazon river delta. But he probably did not know it was a delta for sure.
Quote
... the mouth of the Amazon is so huge (over 200 miles across) that early explorers navigating the Atlantic coastline of South America simply didn't recognize the mouth of the river as a river!
http://www.projectamazonas.org/brief-history-amazon-exploration (http://www.projectamazonas.org/brief-history-amazon-exploration)

The fact that the headwaters of the Amazon river are just east of the Andes was not discovered until 1541 and not confirmed as the headwaters, despite reaching the Atlantic Ocean on 26 August, 1542, until many years later.

Quote
Despite the fact that indigenous people had been living in the Amazon for at least 10,000 years, and possibly for as long as 15,000 year, the Amazon River itself was "discovered" by a Spanish explorer and conquistador.  Don Francisco de Orellana left Quito, Ecuador in February of 1541 in the role of lieutenant to the company of Gonçalo Pizarro ...
http://www.projectamazonas.org/brief-history-amazon-exploration (http://www.projectamazonas.org/brief-history-amazon-exploration)

But not only is successfully imagining a mountain chain like the Andes rather far fetched, placing imaginary or speculative land marks was NOT standard operating procedure for a cartographer of that day.

As you can see from much later maps, like this detailed southern South American Dutch map from 1675, cartographers did not 'make things up' inside a land mass that they did not know precisely where to locate.

(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-120215001540.jpeg)
Quote
1675: Wit, Frederik de. “Tractus australior Americæ Meridionalis, a Rio de la Plata per Fretum Magellanicum ad Toraltum.” Copperplate map, with added color, 48 × 54 cm. From Wit’s Orbis maritimus ofte zee atlas. Amsterdam, 1675.  Reference: Martinic, Cartografía magallánica VIII, 121. Historic Maps Collection

Drawing scenes of this and that may be okay to add a little razzle dazzle, but locating a mountain chain AND river tributaries for aesthetic effect was not acceptable then or now. Cartographers were/are fastidious about landmarks, Ashvin. When a landmark position is not certain but still claimed by an eye witness, the cartographer will so state on the map. The Piri Reis map does NOT state that the Amazon tributaries, the Amazon river OR the Andes are speculation.

5) The Piri Reis map accurately portrays the Malvinas (The Falklands for the Brits). Portuguese cartographer Pedro Reinel, in about 1522, produced the very first map to show the Falklands AFTER the Piri Reis map. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_history_of_the_Falkland_Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_history_of_the_Falkland_Islands)

Vespucci turned north about 400 miles north of Tierra de Fuego. He never sighted or mapped the Malvinas.

(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-130215003144.jpeg)
Piri Reis map with detailed South American east coastline, a portion of the Andes mountain chain, Amazon river headwaters not discovered officially until much later and accurately portrayed Malvinas islands pointed out by A. G. Gelbert.


The probability that Amerigo Vespucci, in a mapping voyage that took LESS THAN two years, mapped, at the Piri Reis level of detail, 10,000 km PLUS of the eastern coast of South America and "got lucky" positioning a large part of the Andes he had never seen, the headwaters from them that feed the Amazon river and the accurate portrayal of the Malvinas is ZERO.
   

Serious scholars in their ivory towers (http://www.freesmileys.org/emoticons/emoticon-object-064.gif) are allergic to paradigm shifts.  (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-scared005.gif)  So are you. I understand.

Except for the quotes and links, I, A.G. Gelbert, wrote all the above.

Among the pseudo historians, there is a subset that I belong to of "pseudo" historians that are serious, truth searching amateur historians who labor to expose the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help us God.   (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/301.gif)  I am a man of respect and integrity. I am not credentialed but I am credible.

Anyone reading this is free to publish it, send it to a university, shout it from the rafters (and so on) with, or without, attribution. I am unconcerned if the "serious" scholar historians print this on a roll of toilet paper. If they do, at least it shows those stuffed shirts have a sense of humor.  ;D

I freely give this authority to readers in order to nip in the bud, so to speak, any spurious and defamatory claims of pecuniary motives on my part. Of course some may try to claim I am a pseudo-historian fishing for a book contract like any "good" con artist. Anyone that claims that is engaging in libel and is also suffering from glial cell colonization by fecal coliforms. Have a nice day.   8)
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on February 16, 2015, 10:13:44 pm
(http://www.abroadintheyard.com/wp-content/uploads/Wallaces-Line-separating-southeast-Asian-and-Australian-fauna-today-and-around-50000-years-ago-when-sea-levels-were-much-lower.jpg)
Quote
Wallace's Line separating southeast Asian and Australian fauna today, and around 50,000 years ago ...

Snippet from an article with the above graphic in it. Aside from the "subspecies" groundless speculation about interbreeding, it points to some type of hominid species that was NOT Homo SAP.

Quote
A study of ancient DNA suggests that a mysterious sub-species of ancient human could have reached Australia after crossing Wallace’s Line in southeast Asia over 100,000 years ago.

The Denisovans are the newest addition to the human family tree following the  discovery in 2008 of a 40,000 year-old finger bone in the Denisova cave in Siberia’s Altai Mountains.  Scientists were stunned when analysis of its mitochondrial DNA revealed that it was genetically distinct from modern humans and Neanderthals.  They were further amazed when they found that some modern human populations carried traces of Denisovan DNA, the relic of ancient interbreeding between the two subspecies.  (http://www.coh2.org/images/Smileys/huhsign.gif)  (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/gaah.gif)

Puzzlingly, the traces of Denisovan DNA in modern human genomes appear to be confined to indigenous populations in Australia, New Guinea and surrounding areas, but absent or at very low levels in populations on mainland Asia where the fossil was found.
http://www.abroadintheyard.com/denisovans-discover-australia/


Agelbert NOTE: I don't know how advanced or how primitive they were.
However, I think it is arrogantly biased to automatically assume the Denisovans were brutes that could only follow the animals they hunted over land to Australia and were too 'unevolved' to know how to make boats!  :( Regardless of the patronizing prejudices they have been branded with by our scientists, there is no question that they existed more than 16,500 years ago when sea levels were lower.

Were there OTHER hominid species besides the Denisovans and Neanderthals out there then? How advanced were our ancestors and/or other hominid species we shared the planet with?

The answers, never mind the QUESTIONS, have not been addressed with much rigor by our scientific community. They seem to be rather comfortable with their view of human history and have no wish to have it revised by embarrassing evidence. Consequently, researchers like Graham Handc ock, that question the consensus of history AND provide evidence that it needs revising, are either ridiculed or demonized. So it goes with the turf defending stuffed shirts in academia.  >:(   

A LOT of antediluvian civilization got flooded when sea levels rose. A moron can see that humans have a habit of building coastal cities! A person with an IQ of 80 or better can figure out that when ice caps melt, coastal port cities will be flooded and disappear from the historical record. With a few more IQ points, they can even look at modern civilization and SEE where most of our population AND HIGH TECH is concentrated. DUH... The COASTAL mega cities. So if you tell a scientist/archeologist that if you want to look for ancient advanced civilizations and possible high tech, the OBVIOUS place to start is the location of coastlines in the three melt surges post ice age, WHY do they look at you cross eyed?  ???  It's either because they are stupid or they are in to arrogant turf protection. I don't think they are stupid.  ;D

According to modern science, the world wide coastal flooding post ice age occurred in three major surges. The lowest sea level before the ice began to melt was 16,500 years ago. That was the pre-flood civilization. But since the three periods of surges were separated by thousands of years, there were technically three levels of pre-flood coastal city civilizations. After each massive flooding event, mankind would build cities on the new coasts.

(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-160215212431.jpeg)

Map created by Martin Vargic, an amateur graphic designer from Slovakia.

'It is the first map of its kind on such a scale and level of complexity, and depicts our planet as it looked during the late glacial maximum of the last ice age, 14,000 years BCE,' he told MailOnline.

The world 16,000 years ago was in many ways radically different to the present; because large amounts of water were concentrated in the massive ice sheets covering the majority of North America and western Eurasia, sea levels were about 110 meters lower when compared to today.

This exposed massive land bridges, most notably Beringia, Sundaland and Sahul.

Martin Vargic said,
Quote

 "I was genuinely surprised about how the climate and geography of the world has changed in only about 16 thousand years (only a fraction of time when compared to Earth's history)".

The two maps below show the weather now versus the weather 16,000 years ago. Also please note that in this type of projection, Antarctica's coast line is severely distorted.

(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-160215212523.jpeg)

(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-160215212617.jpeg)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2630738/How-world-looked-ice-age-The-incredible-map-reveals-just-planet-changed-14-000-years.html


If the scientific community ever does decide to seriously address the possibility of advanced antediluvian civilization, the answers will probably be found in ancient submerged cities.

Here for your edification and enjoyment is some research done by Graham Handc ock in the company of scientists. These videos are about scientific evidence for pre-flood cities and civilizations. Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va0BIqfzpvo&feature=player_embedded
Underworld - Flooded Kingdoms Of The Ice Age (part one)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRq56cWLyZQ&feature=player_embedded
Underworld - Flooded Kingdoms Of The Ice Age (part two)


Flooded Kingdoms of the Ice Age: A Vedic and India Perspective by David Frawley

SNIPPET (relating to the research in the above videos):
  8)

Quote
Vedic literature describes its homeland on a long lost river called the Sarasvati, which according to Vedic descriptions flowed east of the Indus from the Himalayas to the Arabian Sea. Modern satellite photography has clearly indicated the existence of this great river, as have numerous geological and ground water studies conducted over the last few decades, which show that the Sarasvati was once over ten kilometers in width and flowed from the mountains to the sea, dwarfing the nearby Indus. As the Vedas say, the Sarasvati was the largest river of the region at the time. It was the center of a great civilization and the vast majority of ancient Indian and Harappan ruins have been found on the now dried banks of the Sarasvati.

 As the Sarasvati River dried up around 1900 BCE, the Vedic civilization which describes the river as its immemorial homeland must be much older.

Graham Han**** breaks down this anti-India barrier and elevates ancient India back to the forefront of ancient civilizations. He shows that the spiritual foundation of the Vedas cannot be divorced from the earliest civilization of the region. He quotes the Vedas to show how they reflect a great flood and the establishment of a new civilization after it. Han**** shows how the Vedas reflect a maritime civilization which developed amidst the crashing glaciers that produced the waters to make the now dry Sarasvati the largest river in India. Marine archaeology shows a number of submerged sites off the coast of Kachchh and Cambay in what would have then been the old Sarasvati delta region.

A Gulf of Cambay urban site has recently been dated by Indian archaeologists to 7500 BCE. This would totally change our view of history as we now date cities only after 3500 BCE. It is here that Han**** is now seeking what he calls the holy grail of his quest for this older civilization of the pre-Ice Age era. It is here that we can look for the tradition of Manu, the Hindu flood figure and first king and law giver, and the great sages, the Angirasa and Bhrigu rishis who were traditionally connected both to Manu and to the sea. This earlier civilization was preserved in India in two traditions. The first is the Vedic tradition, which grew up on the Sarasvati River at the end of the Ice Age. The second is the Tamilian tradition, which reflected pre-Ice Age cultures off the coast of South India.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/esp_cienciaindia_5.htm

Mankind does not just have over 250 flood "myths"; we have MASS AMNESIA about our past!  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714183312.bmp)
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on February 17, 2015, 01:24:04 am
JD,
I researched the Chinese maps. Unlike Piri Reis, the dates cannot be authenticated. Consequently, they cannot be used as evidence of Chinese pre-European discovery of the Americas.  :emthdown:

UB said,
Quote
Agelbert, thanks for the time taken producing the above posts, kindly cue the cat in the labcoat, it needs to be my new signature.

The cat in the lab coat?
 (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-010215144153.png)

You mean THIS ONE? (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191258.bmp)
(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-230115195735.png)

WHOOPS! That's the one that comes later....  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191258.bmp)
 (http://www.whydidyouwearthat.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/tumblr_l7j9nik8Wf1qaxxwjo1_5001.jpeg)(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-051113192052.png)

You are welcome. (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-141113185701.png)

I hear what you say about Antarctica and Piri Reis. But you have to look closely at Cape Horn (in the right twist distortion) versus the location of the Malvinas on the Piri Reis map. That is BIG deal. WHY? Because Cape Horn looks like the stretched, flattened Antarctic coast that a modern map like the one below shows.

(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-160215212523.jpeg)

Now check out the other map that shows what the world looked like before the ice melted 16000 years ago. It is quite interesting that the South American tip begins to swing RIGHT as the ocean level gets shallower.

(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-160215212617.jpeg)

Does that mean Piri Reis data down there was that old? I don't think so BECAUSE the Malvinas would be bigger.
(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-130215003144.jpeg)

 They aren't bigger than when they got officially mapped by some Dutch dude in 1524 or so. Nevertheless, I agree the Dutch were not letting on what they knew (the Dutch have a historical HATRED for Spaniards). I'll dig up that Dutch 1524 map if you like. Here's a modern close up map of the area:
(http://www.naturalist.co.uk/maps/Falklands.jpg)

At any rate, Piri Reis and the Dutch were probably NOT pals either. My hypothesis is that the ancient knowledge came from the middle east. I've got some leads but no proof. So, for now, I am simply TOTALLY convinced that Europeans did not make Piri Reis.


Ashvin,  (http://www.coh2.org/images/Smileys/huhsign.gif) Let me get his straight. You think that JESUS CHRIST was referring to a LOCAL flood when he was discussing Noah and the Ark?

Do you want the Gospels in Greek (as supposedly they were originally written in) and the old testament in Aramaic, Hebrew and whatever to accept that JESUS was raised in the JEWISH faith and read and believed the Scriptures that do not say BEANS about the flood and Noah being allegorical, a parable, some children's scary story or a warning? Your NON-answer is absolutely BREATHTAKING!

Let's take it from the top. Jesus Christ is GOD, right? He comes into this world in the flesh and His knowledge gets downgraded (according to the New Testament). He did not have the FULL PICTURE that GOD has. The specific passage is where it says he GREW in KNOWLEDGE.

God does NOT need to do that. But J.C. needed to do that because he was part Homo SAP. The point is that he LEARNED and BELIEVED the Pentateuch, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Judges, Chronicles, Samuel I and II and so on. He was a smart guy, RIGHT? He probably had a photographic memory, RIGHT? Of course! He may have been human but here is no question that He was a GENIUS when He walked the earth.

You and I have taken pains trying to explain to RE and others that J.C. was NOT ACTING in a play. That is why he had his data base Homo SAP sized when He came here. Otherwise it would have been just theater. He HAD to feel DOUBT about who He was/is or he was doing theater.

But maybe you have never wanted to delve into the divinity/humanity mix all that much. Fine. Me neither. I just KNOW the Gospel says He LEARNED and He INCREASED in KNOWLEDGE. There is no way to dance around that fact. And I don't believe you want to so I will assume you agree that J.C. learned his Scriptures like a good Jewish boy.

Fast forward to Mathew 24:37-39. Here the overall context is His RETURN when He won't be Mr. Nice Guy. He is using a historical reference (Noah, the ark and the flood that drowned every non-aquatic creature on EARTH, according to the scripture (the date it happened is not the issue, Ashvin - it's WHETHER it happened or not on a global scale that IS the issue AND the reason I said anybody claiming J.C. did not believe in global flood is mistaken.).

 J.C. is predicting what some Homo SAP civilizational conditions will be when He RETURNS. It's a prophecy. It's a rather IMPORTANT prophecy, is it not? Do you HONESTLY think Jesus Christ  would use a LOCAL FLOOD (where Noah and family got warned and survived while the bad people in a limited area drown)  comparison to HIS RETURN to JUDGE the EARTH?

Do you think He was planning to drop in on the same area as that LOCAL FLOOD and to hell with the rest of the planet?

Perhaps I am not understanding you, Ashvin. Would you please clarify your position on Noah and the extent of the flood? GO was kind enough to state right out that he thought it was a parable. He considered it a myth. He may still consider it a myth but he promises to ponder the issue. There is an honest response. Is that your opinion too?

And by the way, I'm surprised you did not immediately point out to GO that "image and likeness" of God has absolutely nothing to do with our biology and everything to do with our spirit. Or do YOU labor under the erroneous view that our bodies are what was made in the "image and likeness" of God too?

Back to Jesus Christ, we have enough trouble in forums like this to get people to believe Jesus Christ Himself came even the FIRST TIME, never mind returning! Look at all the hoops you jumped through when that article about J.C. being a myth was dropped here by Da godfader for fun and jollies over a year ago. I was so disgusted with it I could not bring myself even to comment on it. I am indebted to you for fighting the good fight then.

But now I'm very unsatisfied with your response about J.C. and Matthew 24:37-39. J.C. was not whistling Dixie, to put it mildly. He was talking about the most important event in Church Prophetic Teaching History. You CANNOT just gloss over that and concentrate on the cross, salvation and leave it at that. The Early Church got through those awful times with help from the Holy Spirit, sure. But the HOPE of His RETURN was one of the main forces in keeping the early Christians united.

That biblical passage is a HUGE deal! I caution you, JD and GO and any other believers reading this, to not pretend Jesus Christ was making an "unimportant" comparison between Noah's life saving ark and Jesus Christ's return.

Of course you could chase down King James' translators and do a bit of hairsplitting about what J.C. said and how He said it. I'm sure you and Ka could discuss the matter for weeks. But there is no way you can extract Noah and the ark from Jesus Christ's return to "kick ass and take names" for non-obedient and the reward of the obedient for His sheep.
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on February 17, 2015, 06:07:00 pm
Ashvin,  (http://www.coh2.org/images/Smileys/huhsign.gif) Let me get his straight. You think that JESUS CHRIST was referring to a LOCAL flood when he was discussing Noah and the Ark?

I think it's a valid interpretation of the Genesis account and scientifically more plausible than a global one. If it is in fact the CORRECT interpretation, then it's obviously the one Jesus would have held too.

Quote
Do you want the Gospels in Greek (as supposedly they were originally written in) and the old testament in Aramaic, Hebrew and whatever to accept that JESUS was raised in the JEWISH faith and read and beleived the Scriptures that do not say BEANS about the flood and Noah being allegorical, a parable, some children's scary story or a warning? Your NON-answer is absolutely BREATHTAKING!

I'm having a hard time believing that you are having such a hard time understanding what I'm saying. My posts have made clear that I do NOT believe it was allegorical, a parable or any other literary device. So I don't know why you keep mentioning those things.

Quote
Fast forward to Mathew 24:37-39. Here the overall context is His RETURN when He won't be Mr. Nice Guy. He is using a historical reference (Noah, the ark and the flood that drowned every non-aquatic creature on EARTH, according to the scripture (the date it happened is not the issue, Ashvin - it's WHETHER it happened or not on a global scale that IS the issue AND the reason I said anybody claiming J.C. did not believe in global flood is mistaken.).

Where does it say "every non-aquatic creature"?

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J.C. is predicting what some Homo SAP civilizational conditions when He RETURNS. It's a prophecy. It's a rather IMPORTANT prophecy, is it not? Do you HONESTLY think Jesus Christ  would use a LOCAL FLOOD (where Noah and family got warned and survived while the bad people in a limited area drown)  comparison to HIS RETURN to JUDGE the EARTH?

Do you think He was planning to drop in on the same area as that LOCAL FLOOD and to hell with the rest of the planet?

Perhaps I am not understanding you, Ashvin. Would you please clarify your position on Noah and the extent of the flood? GO was kind enough to state right out that he thought it was a parable. He considered it a myth. He may still consider it a myth but he promises to ponder the issue. There is an honest response. Is that your opinion too?

Yes, you are misunderstanding me, and no that's not my opinion.

We BOTH agree that the Flood was universal (and that Jesus was talking about a literal, universal Flood), i.e. it wiped out ALL of humanity except Noah and his family. My position is that ALL of humanity could have been confined to a limited portion of the Earth at the time the Flood occurred. This position would assume that Adam & Eve and their descendants up to Noah didn't make it too far from Eden before the Flood came.

(this is the position held by Hugh Ross and others at Reasons to Believe - www.reasons.org (http://www.reasons.org))

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And by the way, I'm surprised you did not immediately point out to GO that "image and likeness" of God has absolutely nothing to do with our biology and everything to do with our spirit. Or do YOU labor under the erroneous view that our bodies are what was made in the "image and likeness" of God too?

I think GO and I both say it is about human spirit, NOT biology. But GO's point seemed to be that it would be weird for God to create humans in his image, but also more advanced and intelligent beings who are not in his image. My point was this would only be weird if the beings were fallen, since Jesus would be incarnated on at least one other planet as another being (not human) for their redemption. If they are not fallen, then it's not so weird (theologically), since we already accept the existence of unfallen angels who are probably more intelligent than we are.

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Back to Jesus Christ, we have enough trouble in forums like this to get people to believe Jesus Christ Himself came even the FIRST TIME, never mind returning! Look at all the hoops you jumped through when that article about J.C. being a myth was dropped here by Da godfader for fun and jollies over a year ago. I was so disgusted with it I could not bring myself even to comment on it. I am indebted to you for fighting the good fight then.

But now I'm very unsatisfied with your response about J.C. and Matthew 24:37-39. J.C. was not whistling Dixie, to put it mildly. He was talking about the most important event in Church Prophetic Teaching History. You CANNOT just gloss over that and concentrate on the cross, salvation and leave it at that. The Early Church got through those awful times with help from the Holy Spirit, sure. But the HOPE of His RETURN was one of the main forces in keeping the early Christians united.

That biblical passage is a HUGE deal! I caution you, JD and GO and any other believers reading this, to not pretend Jesus Christ was making an "unimportant" comparison between Noah's life saving ark and Jesus Christ's return.

Of course. I pointed out this same HUGE comparison to GO back when he still believed it was allegory, and I'm pretty sure that's why he decided to treat it more literally. The comparison rests in the LITERAL judgments of sin/evil which affect ALL of humanity, and the "Ark" (Jesus Christ) which offers us salvation. I hope my position is more clear to you now.

I also have a question - do you believe God would wipe out Arctic polar bears or penguins in Antarctica, even though they would have no interaction with humanity at the time of the Flood? That seems like overkill to me...

Ashvin,
I stand corrected. I see that you believe humanity was limited to the area around where Noah lived. Then, of course, the flood would not need to be world wide.

Of course the account of Noah does not say that non-aquatic animals were singled out for destruction; that's a logical conclusion a biblical researcher I read about in the 1980's reached when he studied the Noah's Ark and what types of life forms (all surface air breathers) were in it. Quite frankly, that's a no-brainer. But that researcher went on and on about seeds surviving so no seeds needed to be carried, dormant insects, insect eggs and pods that float (and so on). It wasn't necessary for all that to be spelled out in Scripture, was it?

As to the polar bears and penguins, both species would survive in a worldwide flood even though they are air breathers because they hang around and feed on ice flows. But the gist of your question is not about polar bears and penguins; it's about overkill. I get it.

So let me address it. You are the Biblical Scholar, not me. You are the one that has discussed the curse now and then from Adam on down. I have absolutely no sympathy for God's decision to curse all of life because Adam was disobedient.

I'm right there with WHD in being highly disgusted with the idea that a just God would do such a thing. I do not get it. I do not understand it. But just like all of nature was cursed because of whatever actually happened (I DO think the garden of Eden is 100% allegorical!) a long time ago between our species and God, the death of millions of totally innocent animals in the flood is a given that I accept.

So yeah, I believe the flood was worldwide and covered all the mountain tops (as the Scripture says). There are marine fossil shells found in the highest of mountains. The scientists claim that is because the mountains got pushed up. Some of them, sure. But marine fossils on mountains are ubiquitous all over the planet. And Ashvin, there is a lot more evidence, hard evidence, of a geologically recent worldwide flood than that.

But let us assume that there is NO EVIDENCE and the Bible is our only reference. Let us assume that God did some major overkill during Noah's flood. There is no question that the animal pairs that got lucky and were chosen to ride the boat equates to a death sentence for the numerous representatives of their species that were slated to drown. Without even considering polar bears or penguins, we are already into overkill=unjust God territory, are we not? We are not talking about the difference between a Divine misdemeanor and a felony. God is either 100% just or He is not God, right? Right.

So where do these apparently calloused and cruel Divine death sentences on innocent animals, never mind severely narrowing the gene pool, leave us? Shall we give the finger to the God of the Bible? Shall we say all religion is baloney? Shall we say J.C. did not know His ass from a hole in the ground? Not me. Only God has the authority to judge God.

Shall we say that it is obvious that there is no God and we are all evolved pond scum doing a Rorschach exercise on what we see in nature by projecting our feverish imaginations on why this, that and the other happened to try to make some sense or order where there actually is no order or sense? Are we just making it up as we go along because of our 'evolutionary advantage' (used to quickly discern threats, particularly threatening faces) called Pareidolia?

Pareidolia (/pærɨˈdoʊliə/ parr-i-DOH-lee-ə) is a psychological phenomenon involving a vague and random stimulus (often an image or sound) being perceived as significant.

I used to listen to a Pastor called J. Vernon McGee. He would respond to questions of that nature by saying that it's God's universe. What seems unjust as all hell to us has some purpose that we cannot fathom because of our limitations as humans.

The unbelievers call that wishful or magical thinking. I don't believe it is. It's a recognition that trying to logically countenance each and every action that God takes that involves causing the physical death of his creations as "good", only if it is limited to the guilty party (Homo SAP), is a quixotic effort.

Towards the end of His earthly ministry, J.C. said something that has always struck me as evidence that the Bible is VERY limited in what knowledge it has imparted to Homo SAPS on what goes on and why.

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John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

IOW, He has given them the basic stuff. The other info is WAY OUT there, more complex, more voluminous and more difficult to believe. We know very little about this universe.

My belief is that there was a worldwide flood (at least one). My evidence is the 12,500 year old catastrophe that scientists have found evidence for about some LARGE meteor fragments hitting the planet mostly in North America and triggering massive, rapid melting.

I believe that carved the Grand Canyon in decades, not millions of years, along with wiping out some very advanced civilizations. I believe THAT was Noah's flood. I think Jesus Christ knew that and a whole lot more He did not tell us.
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on February 18, 2015, 12:51:02 am
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZzJZ7uBxee8/0.jpg)


https://youtu.be/RvHD-oLT-qE
Underworld - Flooded Kingdoms Of The Ice Age (part three) (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-080515182559.png)

Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on February 20, 2015, 12:07:52 am
UB,
Well said.

Ashvin,
You are right. You know nothing about maps ( I know that is a bit snarky but since you like to dish it out, I expect you can take it.).

As UB says. The type of map projection (Portolan) discussed does not invalidate a twisted coastline. The author is presenting a non-argument.

The author had one valid argument about Piri Reis that he subsequently contradicted. I will provide a post on that tomorrow along with addressing Dr. Ross views.

But here's something for you to ponder in regard to Portolan maps:

Quote

Portolan Charts 'Too Accurate' to be Medieval

by Frank Jacobs
 
Portolan charts, it was always assumed, were compiled by medieval European mapmakers from contemporary sources. A Dutch doctoral dissertation now disproves this: these nautical charts are impossibly accurate, not just for medieval Europe, also for other likely sources, the Byzantines and the Arabs. So who made them – and when?

Mystery has always shrouded the sudden emergence, seemingly ex nihilo, of portolan charts. The oldest known example emerged in Pisa around 1290, without any obvious antecedents. This Carta Pisana kickstarted a tradition of amazingly accurate sea charts almost up to modern standards, although as with most other portolans, that accuracy was mainly limited to the Mediterranean and the Black Sea.

A typical portolan chart showed coastal contours and the location of harbours and ports, ignoring virtually all inland features. It would be criss-crossed by straight lines, connecting opposite shores by any of the 32 directions of the mariner's compass, thus facilitating navigation.

After popping up in Italy, portolans became coveted possessions in the seafaring nations of Spain and Portugal, where they ranked as state secrets.

Little or nothing is known of their origins and production, so the working hypothesis among cartographic historians was that portolans were somehow gathered together from the knowledge of medieval European sailors, possibly enhanced with older knowledge from Byzantine or Arab sources.

That hypothesis has now been disproven by Roelof Nicolai, a Dutch geodetic scientist who on 3 March obtained his doctorate degree from Utrecht University for a dissertation titled A Critical Review of the Hypothesis of a Medieval Origin for Portolan Charts.

In it, Nicolai puts forth the theory that portolan charts were made using techniques that were not at all available to medieval Europeans. So they must have copied them from unknown older sources – in all likelihood while failing to grasp how accurate those maps really were.

Nicolai demonstrates that portolans achieved their accuracy by using what seems like an early version of the Mercator Projection – almost three centuries early. Only in 1569 would the Flemish cartographer introduce his mathematical method of projecting spherical data onto a flat surface that would prove crucial to navigation (straight lines on the map equal straight lines at sea).

mozaik (graphic at link)

In blue: portolan shorelines; in red: actual shorelines. A close match in the Mediterranean and Black Seas, wildly off the mark in the British Isles and the Baltic.


“The portolan maps I've researched all seem to be made using the Mercator Projection”, Nicolai says. “They've all clearly been produced on medieval parchment, but those mapmakers probably didn't realise the accuracy of the maps they were producing. We immediately recognise the shape of the Mediterranean, but even in the Late Middle Ages, that shape was far from established on maps. Nobody really knew how all of the Mediterranean's shorelines ran”.

 Nicolai also showed that the portolans weren't produced as single pieces, but in fact are a mosaic: “There are obvious differences of scale and orientation between different areas on portolan maps. Not only does that demonstrate clearly that they were collated from different maps, it also shows that those medieval cartographers were not familiar with the techniques used to produce those different sources”.

The doctorandus also tried to replicate the presumed method by which portolan charts were produced, by averaging the data from numerous single sailing records detailing the location of harbours, the directions of sail, etc. The resulting accuracy was worse by a factor of 10 to that of the actual portolan charts – even while using methods of calculation averages that were developed only at the end of the 17th century. Only in the 19th century did cartographers manage to re-achieve the accuracy of the portolans.

So who was the producer of this anachronistic accuracy? Nicolai only points to the likely source of the maps: Constantinople. “But it is highly unlikely that they were produced there as well. As far as we can tell, the Byzantines really didn't add much to the scientific knowledge inherited from the Classical Age. They only acted as a repository for ancient Greek and Arabic knowledge. And why would the Byzantines even try to chart English and French coastlines? Those were way beyond their sphere of interest”.

Could portolans have an Arabic background? After all, the Arabs were keen astronomers and navigators, giving us the nautical rank of admiral (from 'Amir al Bahr', ruler of the sea). But Nicolai contends the accuracy of the portolans transcends the Arabs' navigational ability of the time. And what we know of Roman and Greek scientific knowledge, for that matter.

“Perhaps we should re-evaluate what we think was the state of science in Antiquity”, says Nicolai. “As long as this doesn't generate any speculation on so-called lost civilisations. As far as these portolans are concerned, we'll just have to think our way back step by step”.
[color]

http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/648-portolan-charts-too-accurate-to-be-medieval (http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/648-portolan-charts-too-accurate-to-be-medieval)

Ashvin,
Your author does not have a clue of what he speaks in regard to Portolan maps.   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714183312.bmp) In fact, anyone knowledgeable of maps does not want to use the Portolan chart nature of Piri Reis to claim it is "no big deal" because the reverse may be true BECAUSE it is a Portolan type chart.
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on February 22, 2015, 07:53:02 pm
Response to Dr. Ross's claim that Noah's Flood was local PART 1 of 2 PARTS

Agelbert NOTE: This is my last post on this thread. I will post any subsequent information in regard to the subjects of ancient maps, archeology, the worldwide flood(s), ancient high tech civilization evidence and evidence, or the lack of it, for ET influence on Homo SAPS on some other thread.   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-060914180936.jpeg)

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Ashvin,
I stand corrected. I see that you believe humanity was limited to the area around where Noah lived. Then, of course, the flood would not need to be world wide.

Of course the account of Noah does not say that non-aquatic animals were singled out for destruction; that's a logical conclusion a biblical researcher I read about in the 1980's reached when he studied the Noah's Ark and what types of life forms (all surface air breathers) were in it. Quite frankly, that's a no-brainer. But that researcher went on and on about seeds surviving so no seeds needed to be carried, dormant insects, insect eggs and pods that float (and so on). It wasn't necessary for all that to be spelled out in Scripture, was it?

As to the polar bears and penguins, both species would survive in a worldwide flood even though they are air breathers because they hang around and feed on ice flows. But the gist of your question is not about polar bears and penguins; it's about overkill. I get it.

So let me address it. You are the Biblical Scholar, not me. You are the one that has discussed the curse now and then from Adam on down. I have absolutely no sympathy for God's decision to curse all of life because Adam was disobedient.

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I don't believe God "cursed" all creation, as in he supernaturally placed a hex on it. I believe he was pointing out the simple fact that creation would now be subjected to the misuses and abuses of sinful humans. The "curse" was a natural consequence of humanity's fall.

You can define "curse" anyway you want, but  "Entropy and the wearing down and deterioration of every life form until it physically dies" is a fairly good working definition.

Nature apparently got shafted because of Adam's disobedience, PERIOD. Dr. Ross, when discussing another act by God  (Noah's flood) claims it was local, but the laws of thermodynamics that govern physical life processes in this universe, not just biochemstry on planet earth,  oviously are not.  I consider that massive overkill.

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I'm right there with WHD in being highly ****ed about the idea that a just God would do such a thing. I do not get it. I do not understand it. But just like all of nature was cursed because of whatever actually happened (I DO think the garden of Eden is 100% allegorical!) a long time ago between our species and God, the death of millions of totally innocent animals in the flood is a given that I accept.

So yeah, I believe the flood was worldwide and covered all the mountain tops (as the Scripture says). There are marine fossil shells found in the highest of mountains. The scientists claim that is because the mountains got pushed up. Some of them, sure. But marine fossils on mountains are ubiquitous all over the planet. And Ashvin, there is lot more evidence, hard evidence, of a geologically recent worldwide flood than that.

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I primarily rely on Hugh Ross for the scientific side of this:

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The Waters of the Flood
January 1, 2000
By Dr. Hugh Ross
(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-161214184123.gif)
"Perhaps the most controversial aspect of the Genesis Flood is its geographical extent. Part of the basis for the controversy is that Genesis addresses the geophysics, geology, and geography of the flood only secondarily. Its main message is that God was compelled to cleanse the earth of the wickedness of man. The message of God's judgment against rampant evil is very clearly stated and understood in any translation. However, in order to comprehend the geological details concerning the flood, it is helpful, perhaps in this case essential, to read the Genesis text in the original Hebrew, and even then the text is not always as specific as one might like.

A good rule of Biblical interpretation is to analyze that which is less specific in the light of that which is more specific. As I mentioned in part seven of this series, the Bible is very specific about the extent of the defilement of man's sin and about God's response. The defilement is limited to the sinners, their progeny for several generations, birds and mammals which are part of their livelihood, their material possessions, and their agricultural land. Nowhere in the Bible do we see God's meting out judgment beyond those limits. Hence, we can expect that if mankind had never visited Antarctica, God would not have struck that territory. The extent of the Genesis flood would be limited to the extent of the defilement of man's sin. This interpretation is supported by the Genesis author's choice of the Hebrew words for creatures" destroyed by the flood, namely basar and nephesh. Part seven gives further details.

In Genesis 7:4-12 we are told that the flood arose from the earth's troposphere and from underground aquifers (not from some unknown place in outer space). These water resources are considerable, to be sure, but fall short of what verse 19 seems to require. According to Genesis 7:19, the waters "rose greatly ... and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered." The English translation seems to imply that even Mt. Everest was submerged under the flood waters.

Science has indeed discovered there is enough water locked away beneath the earth to flood the planet ABOVE the mountain tops. I'll dig up the article if you want.

Dr. Ross is unconvinced by the evidence presented by the scientific community of meteor fragments hitting the planet 12,500 years ago as a direct cause of Noah's flood BECAUSE of a biblical account that is NOT an eye witness account like the waters all around the ark are.

I see his logic. It's pretty good but it falls short. Noah saw a lot of water but there is no way he could have ascertained that the flood was global, so Noah's account of a global flood is suspect, particularly in the area of water torrents coming from inside the planet.

But that certainly does not rule out the hard scientific evidence of meteor fragment strikes, fossilization mechanism (discussed below) and the discovery of, not small, but gigantic (enough when added to our oceans to flood the whole planet!), under the earth, amounts of salt water that certainly could get freed by a lot of meteor induced tectonic activity. That knowledge comes from that very same geophysical body of knowledge Dr. Ross subsequently uses to claim the flood was local. He is cherry picking. That's not kosher.

Quote
  The Hebrew word for "high," however, simply means elevated" and for "mountain," means anything from "a small hillock" to "a towering peak." The Hebrew verb for "covered" allows three alternatives: (1) inundated, (2) rained upon, or (3) washed over as by a rush of water. In any of these cases, 15 cubits of standing water, 15 cubits of sudden rainfall, or a 15-cubit rush of water, there would be no human or animal survivors. 

This is speculation. Wood floats. People hang on to it and float too. A cubit equals 450 mm = 18 inches. Fifteen cubits =  22.5 feet. The 2004 tsunami had survivors that hung on to things that floated. Some of these people were found alive in the ocean after several days.

Does Dr. Ross accept that the waters were (15 cubits above the surface of all Homo SAPS) for the length of time Moses claims that Noah claimed there were? If so, he had better deep six that word "rush" to describe the waters.  If so, he has a lot of explaining to do about how so much water could be in a previously dry area for so long.

But he doesn't go there because that would argue for a much larger flood (though not necessarily a planetary one) than a relatively small local flood. His faulty calculus is that God is limited to offing just mankind and the "defiled by association" animals and land. I wish that was true.

Please obseve more cherry picking below. Here he accepts the rather broad, and impossible to verify, Biblical claim that the waters went back to their previous levels. There is simply NO WAY that Noah could know that unless God told him that. Dr. Ross is reticent to believe other things God allegedly told Noah but accepts this revelation as fact?

Hello? We all agree that, after Noah's flood, the human population did not require birth control, right? It was going to be a while before Piri Reis made his map, right?  Noah did NOT KNOW WHERE the shores were before the flood and certainly did not know afterwards, period (this is an excellent argument for claiming antedilluvian civilization was NOT high tech. If it had been, Noah would certainly have known where the pre-flood shorelines were - Dr. Ross probably would claim that Noah and mankind were in such a small area that they COULD, in LOW TECH fashion,  measure the shorelines before and after the flood - how convenient for his local flood hypothesis.).

If the flood covered the planet and Noah knew where the shorelines were before and after the flood, he either lived in a global high tech civilization prior to the flood or got his info through Divine Revelation.   

As you see below,  Dr. Ross is being highly selective in what he claims science backs up as accurate and what Genesis is accurate on. His statement about the claim made by some that there were no high mountains before the flood is impossible to verify and not accepted by geological science OR claimed by the Bible either; it's just another red herring we must ignore. I've already stated that science has, indeed, discovered that there IS enough water to flood our planet to the mountain tops.


Quote
Genesis 8 gives us the most significant evidence for a universal (with respect to man and his animals and lands), but not global, flood. The four different Hebrew verbs used in Genesis 8:1-8 to describe the receding of the flood waters indicate that these waters returned to their original sources. In other words, the waters of the flood are still to be found within the aquifers and troposphere and oceans of planet Earth. Since the total water content of the earth is only 22 percent of what would be needed for a global flood, it appears that the Genesis flood could not have been global.

The argument I have heard most frequently against this conclusion is that before the flood, there were no high mountains or deep oceans. The present day relief of the earth's surface is said to have been generated in a period of just a few months. I see several major problems with such a suggestion:
-it contradicts a vast body of geological data;
-it contradicts a vast body of geophysical data, at the same time requiring such cataclysmic effects as to render highly unlikely Noah's survival in an ark;
-it overlooks the geophysical difficulties of a planet with a smooth surface; and
-it contradicts our observations of the tectonics. The mechanisms that drive tectonic plate movements have extremely long time constants, so long that the effects of such a catastrophe would easily be measurable to this day. Since they are not, I conclude that the flood cannot be global.

As for the reference, "under the entire heavens," such expressions must always be understood in their context. What would constitute under the entire heavens for the people of Noah's time? The extent of their view from the entire region in which they existed or operated. Perhaps a verse from the New Testament will clarify my point. In Romans 1:8 the Apostle Paul declares that the faith of the Christians in Rome was being "reported all over the world." Since "all over the world" to the Romans meant the entire Roman Empire (and not the entire globe), we would not interpret Paul's words as an indication that the Eskimos and Incas were familiar at that time with the activities of the church at Rome.

Further support for a regional, rather than global, cataclysm comes from consideration of God's command to Noah after the flood, the same command He had given to Adam and later gave to the people who built the tower of Babel: "Fill the earth." The fact that God repeated this command to Noah (and intervened dramatically to disperse the people of Babel's day) implies that the people of Noah's generation had not filled the earth. This view is consistent with the geographical place names recorded in the first nine chapters of Genesis. They all refer to localities either in or very close to Mesopotamia."

Dr. Ross is a marvel of supposition and groundless logic. He is obviously swayed by the "vast body" of geological "evidence" by our geologists being challenged today by credentialed scientists.  He is rather pedantic as well.
His claim that the main controversy from a scientific perspective with the flood is the geographic extent is inaccurate. The main controversy, from a scientific perspective, is the FACT that one, or seven, breeding pairs is too narrow of a gene pool to guarantee the survival of species.

There is zero evidence that biblically clean animals require more breeding pairs than biblically unclean animals. The whole Ark trip is a massive bag of worms scientifically. So that means portions of it may be allegorical and there possibly were hundreds of arks in diverse places on the earth.

Ross is merely trying to establish the geographic area of the flood (the subject of his analysis), as the most controversial issue. It's a nice rhetorical touch. If the local flood hypothesis is established as the correct one, the other "issues" are minor details.    (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_2932.gif)

Then he comes up with this clever gem of pedantic posturing:
Quote
A good rule of Biblical interpretation is to analyze that which is less specific in the light of that which is more specific.

That application of that "good rule" properly depends on what the definition of "less specific" and "more specific" is. But on the face of it, it is an illogical premise. "MORE SPECIFIC", in regard to EVIDENCE, is where one must start to reach and/or define "LESS SPECIFIC", not the other way around. But we can hairplit that all day so let's assume he has a lick of sense and see where he goes with this.  .

Quote
" defilement is limited to the sinners, their progeny for several generations, birds and mammals which are part of their livelihood, their material possessions, and their agricultural land."

Beyond the "defilement" of the sinners and progeny , possessions and land, WHILE THEY LIVE ON IT ONLY (there is old testament scripture that challenges the progeny "defilement" too, by the way), the Bible certainly does not maintain anywhere that animals that are part of sinner livelihood (beyond DOMESTIC ANIMALS) are "defiled". But that term, "defilement", is a very, very devious term as applied here. Millions of WILD animals, totally unrelated to the LIVELIHOOD of mankind were KILLED by drowning.

To claim it was because they were "defiled by association" using his "less specific" to "more specific" baloney is ridiculous!

And this is the prize of gross assumptions:

Quote
"Nowhere in the Bible do we see God's meting out judgment beyond those limits. "

It's magical thinking but it sounds so pious and good. So he is saying that every bullock and every turtle dove and so on that got sacrificed on an altar deserved it? Will he doubletalk sacrifice for sin as NOT being "judgmental" or related to JUDGMENT?  According to Scripture, God ORDERED that done, NOT because those animals were part of the livelihood of man but because of mankind's sins.

Those animals were NOT DEFILED. In fact, unclean animals COULD NOT be sacrificed! 

And even that SENSELESS BUTCHERY was low level atonement sans total forgivess (not enough to do the job), so Christ had to be the Lamb of God. Christ was/is INNOCENT. ALL those sacrificed animals were INNOCENT. Scape goating ordered by GOD is a buck passing prima facie UNJUST act!

Dr. Ross is full of doubletalk.

To human eyes, unjust behavior by God is ALL OVER THE OLD TESTAMENT!  The young girl that had to DIE because some idiot promised God that the first person he saw would be sacrificed was UNJUST.

Many, many other examples abound. The 21 or over Israelites in Exodus were judged for their disobedience but the kids got a free pass. That was logical and just! The under 21 members of a people that had attacked the Israelites ordered killed was NOT justice.

People slaughtered because of what their ancestors did to the Israelites centuries previous, anyone?

Job, anyone?

Dr. Ross reads what he wants to into the Bible. I don't question God's sovereignty. And I do not sugar coat it either.

Then Ross proceeds to play fast and loose with "the earth" and "the heavens" by cherry picking a quote from Paul. And hairsplitting with the translations of "hills", "mountains" and water depths ignores that Scriptrure quote in Genesis where it states that the Ark was a certain number of cubits ABOVE the  HIGHEST mountains at maximum flood. He wants to define the term "highest" away too!  How convenient. This is hairspliting on steroids! Even a cursory search of the 66 Bible books would find numerous irrefutable uses of the adjective "highest" to mean exactly that!

End of Part 1 of 2 Parts:  Response to Dr. Ross's claim that Noah's Flood was local

Response to Dr. Ross's claim that Noah's Flood was local PART 2 of 2 PARTS (http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/general-discussion/lost-cities-and-civilizations/msg2716/#msg2716)
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on February 22, 2015, 08:00:06 pm
Response to Dr. Ross's claim that Noah's Flood was local PART 2 of 2 PARTS

Also, the number of days this ark was out of sight of land implies a mind boggling amount of water for Noah, considering that he DID NOT live next to the ocean (if that had been the case, he would have built the ark next to the water) but lived up in the hills,  mountains or whatever. Even if the flood area was LOCAL, Dr. Ross is disingenuously lowballing its size by avoiding a DETAILED discussion of the time period the ark was on the waters. How convenient.

But this perfidy, hairsplitting and doubletalk is predicated on the premise, and Ashvin's premise too, that God does NOT do overkill. Yes He does. But it is a clever way to get Christians to nod their heads, isn't it? This charlatanry abuses the faith of Christians in a "GOOD" God by refusing to accept that there is no human way we can justify God's overkill.

It's God's universe, period. There is no need to baby talk and abuse the faith of people by making sanctimonious claims about what God's actions are limited by. But it sells books and keeps the simpletons happy. That does not make it right or logical.

See below a fascinating example of premise upon false premise leading to more and greater incorrect assumptions:

Quote
Further support for a regional, rather than global, cataclysm comes from consideration of God's command to Noah after the flood, the same command He had given to Adam and later gave to the people who built the tower of Babel: "Fill the earth."

Baloney. Dr. Ross cleverly leaves out a certain verb in the Noah account NOT present in the Adam account.

Quote
The fact that God repeated this command to Noah (and intervened dramatically to disperse the people of Babel's day) implies that the people of Noah's generation had not filled the earth.

God DID NOT "Repeat" the command to Noah that God gave to Adam. Mr. Ross takes ONE  VERSE out of context and throws in the Tower of Babel to confuse the issue. In fact, the Tower of Babel is OBVIOUSLY allegorical unless you think God was A) physically located at a distance from mankind down on the planet AND B)  concerned that humans could "get to him" with a united effort like a tower or human space flight. LOL! The last time I checked, humans are no threat to God. The Tower of Babel is an allegory, period. 

Quote
This view is consistent with the geographical place names recorded in the first nine chapters of Genesis. They all refer to localities either in or very close to Mesopotamia."

The first nine chapters of Genesis is a LOT of territory to cover with such a blanket statement about the consistency of his view. LONG before Moses sat down to write (more like rewrite from hand me down documents or oral traditions) Genesis, there is evidence of civilizations that came and went that God never told Moses beans about.

The Bible is trapped in a vice of chronology in this regard.  There no way that Biblical Scholars, who pay any attention to the chronology of the generations and the names, can handle a flood that happened 12,500 years ago.

That is why many fundamentalists, true to their rigid, all or nothing, personalities,  have to locked themselves in a Procrustean bed that denies verifiable science that PROVES the allegorical nature of several biblical passages.

This in no way denigrates from Biblical authority as a handbook for proper human behavior. Nevertheless, any crack in the scientific accuracy of the Biblical account is used by many to give the Bible, and God, the giant finger.

Dr. Ross is trying to straddle this arbitrary fence with his defense of the Bible and the Christian Faith. Good for him. But his cherry picking is the wrong way to go about it.

Ross left out the Noah quote from Jesus Christ. How convenient. The Kenotic school of thinking (see Kenosis -the relinquishment of divine attributes by Jesus Christ in becoming human ), rejected by many Christian scholars and accepted by many more today, is that J.C. shrunk his mental data base to Homo SAP size through the incarnation to the point of actually being a scientific ignoramous while He walked the earth. I agree that He did not have the full God picture of the universe; that would have made Him an ACTOR in THEATER, as RE has postulated. J.C. had doubts, and plenty of them. A fellow confident of kicking DEATH's ass by getting killed does not sweat blood.

But when He was talking about His return and Noah, He is making it rather clear what He KNEW and what HE DIDN'T KNOW (He didn't know when He was going to return but He knew Noah's flood affected all mankind throughout the world as His return would affect mankind throughout the world). Your logic that, "if the flood was local, then J.C. obviously believed it was local", applies equally if the flood was global.

Dr. Ross, makes broad statements based on the "macro" scientific evidence, only to devolve into the hairslpitting "micro" to support his broad claims. This is one of them:

Quote
The mechanisms that drive tectonic plate movements have extremely long time constants, so long that the effects of such a catastrophe would easily be measurable to this day. Since they are not, I conclude that the flood cannot be global.

Plate tectonics is a red herring wild goose chase that is irrelevant to geologic events within human history. Yeah, they happen slowly. But floods, particularly post ice age ones, happen rather quickly with a lot of help from a few large meteor fragments.

The evidence of global flooding has, in fact, been presented by credentialed geologists for over fifty years. Is it "easily" measured? Yes, but it is controversial to the mainstream uniformitarian geologic paradigm. Consequently, it has been rejected based on uniformitarian ideology, not lack of evidence. And spare me the "dating sediment layers" business. Dating a rock says NOTHING about whether that rock sediment was moved from here to there by a lot of water in a brief period. Sedimentation evidence, on the other hand, DOES.

According to uniformitarianism, all rock formations, including sedimentary rocks where fossils are found, formed over millions of years.

The fact that land AND MARINE fossils are found on land (not in the oceans) and fossilization mostly occurs in conditions of rapid sedimentation (which introduce anoxic conditions that preserve the shape and favor mineralization of the remains - small insects trapped in amber are an exception to this rule because amber also is an anoxic biochemical trap). IS evidence for global flood(s). Furthermore, it is NOT evidence, as mainstream geology claims, of "shallow seas covering the earth millions of years ago" BECAUSE fossils DO NOT FORM in sea water. The skeletons dissolve UNLESS anoxic conditions and biochemical bacterial decomposition is HALTED.

At the bottom of ALL oceans, no matter how deep OR ANOXIC, bacterial decomposition RECYCLES whale skeletons and anything else smaller. Please don't hairsplit with microscopic phytoplankton fossils and such. That is not evidence for ocean preservation of (above microscopic) marine fossils.

Fossilization is an ANOMALY! The biosphere is DESIGNED to recycle all parts of all life forms. Biological science accepts that! But mainstream geology does not want to admit that OBVIOUS fact BECAUSE their "geologic column" is their "BIBLE"!

The "body of geologic knowledge" Dr. Ross is referring to is selective and proven to be partly erroneous as well.

Dr. Ross obviously does not know or believe that a lot of water, carrying massive amounts of sediment and then receding within days or months, leaves multiple levels of sediment that give the FALSE uniformitarian school geologic paradigm view that it happened over millions of years.

But empirical proof of this is has already been obtained subsequent to the Mount Saint Helens eruption caused lake flood. The Grand Canyon strata is also evidence, hotly debated, that uniformitarians cannot counter with their dating methods. They found a mosquito with detectable, not mineralized blood in its gut. This was in a Grand Canyon area sedimentary rock strata allegedly over 16 million years old. The ROCKS may be that old, but a massive flood could have DEPOSITED them in sedimentary layers 12,500 years ago along with the mosquito. As usual, like the dino soft tissue, it's considered a mosquito that just happened to have preserved hemoglobin for 16 (or more) million years. It's a little too close to Jurassic Park for comfort IF that blood found in the gut from a feeding just before it got crushed was from a "you know what".  LOL

Since the effects of a catastrophic global flood 12,500, or so, ARE measurable to this day (good science is NEVER "easy"; it's always methodical and challenging), Dr. Ross CANNOT  assume or conclude that the flood was local. But he does anyway (see large "body" of "knowledge"). Dr. Ross's conclusion is based on the uniformitarian geology scientific consensus that is controversial, not on scientific evidence. 

The fact that fossils are found intermittently in sedimentary layers on land is evidence of (more than one) global flooding event. Dr. Ross is in denial of the FACT that fossilization is a FUNCTION of rapid sedimentation.

But there is more.


The Carbon-14 identified remains of humans in widely dispersed areas of the globe around the time (and before) of the catastrophic meteor fragment strikes 12,500 years ago argues for global flooding along with the 250 plus flood  "myths" of diverse cultures all over the planet. 

But let's talk Bible for the moment:

Below please find Genesis mentions of "the earth". I am certain that the author of Genesis was not changing his definition of "the earth", equating said expression to the entire planet sometimes and a local area at other times.

DR. Ross, and you, obviously do. I accuse Dr. Ross of using the cherry picking fallacious debating tactic. I accuse Ross of trying to stuff the local flood Procrustean bed into the Genesis account of a worldwide flood.

Putting aside the ancient world wide human remains Carbon-14 evidence, sunken cities pretty far from a local area of about 500 to 1000 miles around Turkey and the 12,500 year old meteor fragment catastrophe/possible breaching of massive underground, rock bound waters/massive volcanic eruptions/massive earthquakes/rapid glacial melt/giant tsunamis/flood for a moment, the Scripture is quite clear that the flood was worldwide.

If you accept that the flood was local, then when the Scripture describes the "whole heaven" in connection to the extent of the flood, I guess you will have to claim the "whole heaven" were local too! That is just one of several glaring logical inconsistencies in trying to squeeze  the "local flood" meme into Genesis. The Paul quote that Dr. Ross cherry picked is not evidence that the flood is local.

Quote
King James Bible
Chapter 7:
3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the [size=12]whole heaven[/size], were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
Chapter 8:
1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters assuaged;
3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.
7 And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth.
9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.


 Agelbert note: Please do not hairsplit with me here by bringing up the flight range of a dove (or a raven) as DEFINING the range of the flood.
That logic ignores all the other mentions of "the earth" quoted here.

Furthermore, any claim that this particular passage is "more significant" than the others, because it inserts the word "whole" in the phrase "the earth", completely ignores the fact that Ross is quite willing to equate the entire planet with "the earth" when he uses the "fill the earth" passage as alleged evidence that humanity AND the flood were area limited. Ross also cleverly forgets to mention the "replenish" verb in Genesis 9:1. How convenient. Ross CANNOT have it both ways.

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13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.
14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.
17 Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.
19 Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.
22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
Chapter 9:
1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
11 And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

According the Scripture passages above, "THE EARTH" =  (http://msn.mess.be/data/thumbnails/351/Earth.jpg)

But you are otherwise convinced, so I see no point in discussing it further. I maintain my stance that you and Dr. Ross are wrong. We will have to agree to disagree.

I am done with this thread. Any further posts about strange sh it by me will be on some other thread.  I don't think it is prudent to spend long periods analyzing articles submitted by an allegedly objective party that expects me to diligently do so (your posted verbiage far exceeds mine but you are rather quick to remind me when I miss something  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191258.bmp))  while simultaneously the very same allegedly objective party calmly admits he sees no need to watch the videos I post.

Those videos actually save time. The one presented by Az (by  scientist Dr. Robert Schoch that documented Egyptian Sphinx age and ancient high tech with data, not speculation) was a good one too. Yes, one can't put quotes to debate the video claims one by one but that is easily taken care of by recording the time period in seconds a certain quote was made. That is not hard and is quite specific. It saves time typing as well.

But that is, unfortunately for me, not your style. So I end up reading long articles you post, your arguments to me and other posters, and you end up never watching my posted videos.
 
Here's another excellent and informative video by Dr. Robert Schoch. I'm sorry you won't watch it, Ashvin. It's a bit boring but really quite good. Yep, Schoch sells books too.
The Sphinx, Gobekli Tepe, Ancient Catastrophes Dr Robert Schoch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R1TQ6ZiQBI&feature=player_embedded
(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-100115191314.jpeg)

End of Part 2 od 2 Parts.

Response to Dr. Ross's claim that Noah's Flood was local PART 1 of 2 PARTS (http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/general-discussion/lost-cities-and-civilizations/msg2715/#msg2715)
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on February 24, 2015, 06:06:24 pm
(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-240215175424.jpeg)
(Image Credit: Daily Mail)
A scale model of Noah’s Ark has been built in India according to instructions on a 4,000 year old script.  :o   ???

Noah's Ark Rebuilt According To Ancient Specs 

The vessel, based on the ancient instruction manual, is coracle like, and was built using traditional methods with materials in India.

Built at around one fifth of the original size, the replica would be big enough to carry only some pairs of ‘well behaved animals’, according to Dr Irving Finkel of The British Museum, who first discovered the ancient cuneiform text.

The replicated ark weighed around 20 tonnes, with walls 20 feet high and a small living area on top. It was built as part of the documentary feature being produced called ‘The Real Noah’s Ark’, which is set to air shortly.

Building An Ark

The text describes God speaking to Atram-Hasis, who apparently is the original ‘Noah’ used in the stories that Noah’s Ark was allegedly based upon.

Quote
‘Wall, wall! Reed wall, reed wall! Atram-Hasis, pay heed to my advice, that you may live forever! Destroy your house, build a boat; despise possessions And save life! Draw out the boat that you will built with a circular design; Let its length and breadth be the same.’

Should be an interesting documentary. Read more here at The Daily Mail, along with some pictures and video.

http://itsastrangeworld.com/noahs-ark-rebuilt-according-ancient-instructions/
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on February 28, 2015, 02:08:12 am

Stone Age Britons imported wheat in shock sign of sophistication


Agelbert NOTE: That isn't shocking to me.  ;D


Thursday, February 26, 2015  Alister Doyle for Reuters   


OSLO (Reuters) – Stone Age Britons imported wheat about 8,000 years ago in a surprising sign of sophistication for primitive hunter-gatherers long viewed as isolated from European agriculture, a study showed on Thursday.

British scientists found traces of wheat DNA in a Stone Age site off the south coast of England near the Isle of Wight, giving an unexpected sign of contact between ancient hunter-gatherers and farmers who eventually replaced them.

The wheat DNA was dated to 8,000 years ago, 2,000 years before Stone Age people in mainland Britain started growing cereals and 400 years before farming reached what is now northern Germany or France, they wrote in the journal Science.

“We were surprised to find wheat,” co-author Robin Allaby of the University of Warwick told Reuters of finds at Bouldnor Cliff.

“This is a smoking gun of cultural interaction,” between primitive hunter-gatherers in Britain and farmers in Europe, he said of the findings in the journal Science.

“It will upset archaeologists. The conventional view of Britain at the time was that it was cut off,” he said. “We can only speculate how they got wheat — it could have been trade, a gift or stolen.”

The scientists also found DNA of oak, poplar and beech and of dogs or wolves, deer, grouse and auroch, a type of cow. There was no trace of wheat pollen in the samples, indicating that it was not grown locally.

The scientists found the DNA at what was apparently a pre-historic site for boat building. The sediments are now 11.5 meters (38 feet) below sea level.

Britain used to be connected by land to Europe during the Ice Age but melting icecaps pushed seas higher about 10,000 years ago. A land bridge may have lingered 8,000 years ago.

Farming reaching the Balkans about 8-9,000 years ago from the Middle East and eventually spread throughout Europe.

Greger Larson, an American archaeologist at Oxford University who was not involved in the study, praised the experts for extensive checks to ensure against misinterpretation or contamination of DNA.

The find of wheat “will make us re-evaluate the relationships between farmers and hunter-gatherers,” he told Reuters.

He said there has been other signs of contacts, including bones of domesticated pigs in Germany in Stone Age hunter-gatherer settlements. “There are trade networks that pre-date agriculture,” he said.

(Reporting By Alister Doyle)

Read more at http://newsdaily.com/2015/02/stone-age-britons-imported-wheat-in-shock-sign-of-sophistication/#P8lIKQy3SEYOrtdm.99
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on June 15, 2015, 01:27:40 am
(http://i.imgur.com/wGbddPV.jpg)

Quote
In 536 A.D., the greatest volcanic catastrophe in human history rocked Central America and set off a lethal chain of events, from climate change to famine to the Bubonic plague.

 How could one volcano have such a cataclysmic effect?

Follow experts in environmental hazards as they investigate the eruption that smothered the planet with billions of tons of ash.

Then see how new evidence and theories have shed new light on the apocalyptic disaster that destroyed empires and gave birth to the Dark Ages.

http://www.smithsonianchannel.com/videos/dark-age-volcano/34030?auto=true (http://www.smithsonianchannel.com/videos/dark-age-volcano/34030?auto=true)
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on August 08, 2015, 03:36:51 pm
Quote
Archaeologists have discovered a mysterious Stonehenge-style monolith in the deep sea off the coast of Sicily, shedding new light on the earliest civilizations in the Mediterranean basin.

Broken in two parts, the 3.2-foot-long monolith has a rather regular shape and features three holes of similar diameter. One, which can be found at its end, crosses it completely from part to part, the others appear at two sides of the massive stone.

Such features leave no doubt that the monolith was man-made some 10,000 years ago.  :o

Underwater 'Stonehenge' Monolith Found Off Coast of Sicily
 
 Aug 6, 2015 04:50 PM ET  //  by  Rossella Lorenzi

http://news.discovery.com/history/archaeology/underwater-stonehenge-monolith-found-off-coast-of-sicily-150806.htm
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on August 31, 2015, 03:15:28 am
Million-Dollar Find: Shipwreck's Golden Treasure Includes Very Rare Coin

by Elizabeth Palermo, Associate Editor   |   July 28, 2015 03:56pm ET
(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-310815031028.jpeg)
The "Tricentennial Royal" coin pictured here was die-cast, unlike most coins minted in the Spanish colonies during the 1700s. Credit: 1715 Fleet Queens Jewels, LLC

 
Treasure hunters off the Florida coast recently pulled up the haul of a lifetime: nearly $1 million worth of gold coins and elaborate gold chains, as well as an extremely rare Spanish coin known as a "Tricentennial Royal."

The treasures were hidden on the seafloor for 300 years before the crew of a salvage vessel brought them to the surface last month, on June 17. The riches were found just 1,000 feet (305 meters) offshore of Fort Pierce, Florida, according to Eric Schmitt, captain of the aptly named salvage vessel, Aarrr Booty, which was used to locate the treasure.

The ships that once carried the valuables set sail from Cuba on July 24, 1715, when the island was a Spanish colony. The ships' mission was to transport the riches below deck to Spain, which at the time was waging a war against France and was desperately in need of money to fund battles. [Shipwrecks Gallery: Secrets of the Deep]

But the ships never made it to Spain. A hurricane off Florida sank all but one of the 12 ships on July 30, 1715. The so-called "1715 Fleet" has been a treasure-hunter's fantasy ever since. In 2010, Brent Brisben and his father, William, obtained permits to explore the wrecks in search of sunken riches.

The lucky haul off Fort Pierce was the work of the entire Schmitt family, which includes Eric and his wife, as well as Eric's sister and parents. The Schmitts were subcontracted to explore the 12 different shipwrecks for Brisben's company (1715 Fleet Queen Jewels, LLC), which owns salvage permits.

Included in Aarrr Booty's recent haul were 51 gold coins and 40 feet of golden chain. But the real treasure salvaged from the deep was the rare Tricentennial Royal, one of very few gold coins minted for King Philip V of Spain, according Schmitt, lead diver of the Aarrr Booty vessel's treasure-hunting expeditions.

The coin is "very round" compared to most coins salvaged from the wrecks, said Schmitt, who told Live Science that the royal coin was die-cast (made by pouring molten gold into a coin mold). Most Colonial coins from this period were made using cruder methods that resulted in less uniform shapes, according to the coin-collecting website Coinquest. The round royal coin, which is about the size of a silver dollar, is worth an estimated $500,000, according to Brent Brisben.

And even though Brisben and Schmitt are excited about the discovery of this precious coin, both remain hopeful that even more treasure lies hidden off Florida. Brisben's company owns the salvage rights to five of the 11 ships that sank on July 30, 1715, he told Live Science. He estimates that $440 million worth of coins and other treasures have yet to be recovered from these centuries-old wrecks.

Among the treasures that are still at large are the elusive queen's jewels, which belonged to Philip V's second wife, Elizabeth Farnese, Duchess of Parma. The elaborate jewels were to be a part of the queen's dowry and were supposed to be brought to Spain by the 1715 Fleet. Because jewelry wasn't a taxable commodity in Spain at the time, details about the jewels weren't entered on any official documents, but a few ornate items were allegedly aboard the fleet when it sank, including a 74-carat emerald ring and 14-carat pearl earrings, according to Brisben.

Follow Elizabeth Palermo @techEpalermo. Follow Live Science @livescience, Facebook & Google+. Original article on Live Science.

Elizabeth Palermo
Elizabeth is an associate editor at Live Science who writes about science and technology. She graduated with a B.A. from the George Washington University. Elizabeth has traveled throughout the Americas, studying political systems and indigenous cultures and teaching English to students of all ages.


http://www.livescience.com/51679-shipwreck-treasure-hunters-gold-coins.html
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on December 30, 2015, 07:47:13 pm
(http://media.propertycasualty360.com/propertycasualty360/article/2014/01/16/454258615main-crop-600x338.jpg)

Quote
The middle ages: was it really as gruesome as it's commonly portrayed to be? (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_6656.gif) (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_1730.gif)

Daniel Baker, M.A. in European History, George Mason University

3.5k Views •  Daniel has 150+ answers in History.


Daniel is a Most Viewed Writer in Middle Ages.


The shortest answer I can give to this question, is  "No, in most respects."  :o There are some ways in which the Middle Ages were as bad as they were commonly portrayed, but mostly they weren't.  I'll use a down-and-dirty definition of the Middle Ages as running from 476-1521 (fall of the last Western Roman Emperor to Luther not getting burned at the Diet of Worms), and blithely ignore all the subtleties and nuances.

No, not as bad as commonly portrayed:   (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/301.gif)


1.  Witchcraft.  It used to be popularly believed that the Middle Ages were the height of the witchcraft craze.  Not true; for most of the Middle Ages, it was actually heretical to believe in witches, as St. Augustine had said God wouldn't allow witches to exist.  There were a handful of witch executions in the late Middle Ages, but witch hunts didn't really take off until the papacy approved Heinrich Kramer's book Malleus Maleficarum in 1486. The witch hunts were at their worst in the late 16th to early 17th centuries, long after the end of the Middle Ages.

2. Prima nottae/jus primae noctis/droit de seigneur.  I love Braveheart as a movie, but as history it is inaccurate, and in no way is it more inaccurate than in relaunching this old canard. There is not the slightest evidence that medieval aristocrats ever had the legal right to deflower their peasants' brides on their wedding nights. Certainly a baron or his sons might rap e or sexually coerce women on the fief, and there wouldn't be much the victims could do about it in courts controlled by those very same barons, but the lords couldn't have done it openly without getting into trouble with the church and the royal courts.

3.  Bad teeth.  Sure, dental care was primitive in the Middle Ages, but there was a compensating advantage: a very low-sugar diet, which kept tooth decay under control.  People's teeth got much worse after the end of the Middle Ages, when sugar started to flow in from the Caribbean colonies.

4.  Absolute kingship. The popular image of the medieval king as an absolute ruler is a fiction; absolute monarchy is a post-medieval concept of the 16th and 17th centuries.  Medieval monarchs were constantly struggling for control with the church (a struggle they ultimately lost when the church won the right to name bishops and abbots), and with their own nobles (which turned out rather more successfully for the kings). 

5.  Technology.  It was once conventional wisdom that the Middle Ages were a time of technological retrogression.  In fact, most Roman technology was preserved, and lots of new technology was invented or imported: the compass, the moldboard plow, the horse collar, the stirrup, the waterwheel mill and trip-hammer, Arabic numerals, stained glass (brought to a height of perfection that we can't duplicate today), plate armor, and  the longbow.



Yes, as bad as portrayed, but no worse than earlier or later times: (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/128fs318181.gif)

1.  Disease. Yes, the medieval world suffered horribly from bubonic plague, not only in the famous outbreak of 1346, but also the more obscure but equally devastating Plague of Justinian in 541.  And there was the "sweating sickness," still not certainly diagnosed by modern physicians, and many other pestilences.  Against this, all medieval Europe had was Galen and the bogus theory of the humors.  The Muslim world was somewhat better off, since the Muslims had invented hospitals and understood the importance of cleanliness, but without the germ theory of disease even the Muslims were largely helpless against the power of epidemics.  Still, other eras suffered as badly or worse from disease as the Middle Ages; plague may have cost Athens the Peloponnesian Wars, and Roman medicine was no better than the medieval.  Plague continued into the early modern era, and smallpox got worse. And the virgin soil epidemics caused by the European discovery of the Americas dwarfed anything in the Middle Ages. Tetanus, diphtheria, small pox, syphilis, measles, mumps, cholera, typhoid were never ending dangers for which there was no treatment or cure. Slight scratches could easily become septic, and develop into blood poisoning to kill you.

2.  Famine.  When the crops failed, medieval European peasants died in droves - just like Roman peasants, Greek peasants, or early modern European peasants.

3.  Cruel punishments. (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_2194.gif)(http://www.smiley-lol.com/smiley/exagerent/police/boulet.gif) (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_6869.gif)   Hanging by slow strangulation was a medieval invention, but Roman death penalties were just as bad: crucifixion, impalement, mauling by beasts, and fustuarium (beating to death by cudgels).  Likewise, penalties like piercing the tongue with hot iron, breaking on the wheel, and hanging continued long past the end of the Middle Ages.

As bad or worse than portrayed:  (http://i1.wp.com/gas2.org/files/2013/05/stupid.png)

1.  Outside raids and invasions. It wasn't just the Vikings, who have a stranglehold on popular imagination: it was also the Alans, the Avars, the Bulgars, the Arabs, the Magyars, the Turks, and the Mongols.  (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/pirates5B15D_th.gif) The Romans had been pretty successful in keeping their borders secure, and while early modern Europe was rent with internal war, it had little to fear from outside invasion.

2.  Illiteracy.  The Middle Ages were the least literate period in European history since the Greek Dark Age  Yes, the German tribes had always been illiterate, but with the Middle Ages they helped make illiteracy the normal state of the ruling class in Christian Spain,  France, Britain, Italy, and the Balkans.  The ordinary Roman was illiterate too, but the upper crust was expected to read and write; that ceased to be true by the 800s.  Writing from the early Middle Ages is even more fragmentary than records from Rome, even though the Roman records are older.  Coming to Islamic Toledo, Gerard of Cremona himself remarked on the "poverty of the Latins" in books as compared to the Muslims.  The printing press, in turn, made the early modern period much more literate than medieval times.

3.  No road building.  The medievals seem to have relied mainly on Roman roads for land transport throughout the era.  This was not because the technology had been lost, but because access to huge amounts of slave labor had been lost.   (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-080515182559.png) (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714191258.bmp)

4.  Crazy judicial methods. There may not have been much to choose from between Roman punishments and medieval ones, but at least the Romans had fairly sane methods of trial, without any oath-helpers, trials by ordeal of iron or water, or trials by combat.  While the frequency of these medieval judicial methods is somewhat exaggerated in the popular press (I read a pipe roll from King John of England's reign that had only one trial by combat and no ordeals out of several dozen judgments), the very fact that they were significant at all made the Middle Ages worse than the Roman or early modern periods.

https://www.quora.com/ (https://www.quora.com/)
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on January 24, 2016, 08:33:15 pm
Hard Evidence that Egyptian Mummies have traces of Co caine and Nicotine.  :o HOW did they get them there from South America?  ???

Enjoy this fascinating video with many facts that scientists cannot explain  (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_1730.gif)  OR deny/discard because the data does not fit their world view. (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/bc3.gif)  (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_6961.gif)  (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/290.gif)

RE will particularly enjoy the fact that the Aztec SUN STONE with their SUN GOD describes the world ending with a GEOTECTONIC upheaval.

(http://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/ancient/images/sw/aztec-sun-dial-146507-sw.jpg)
(http://www.animatedimages.org/data/media/142/animated-volcano-image-0010.gif) (http://www.animatedimages.org/data/media/142/animated-volcano-image-0010.gif)(http://www.animatedimages.org/data/media/142/animated-volcano-image-0010.gif) (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-070814193155.png)
(http://www.crystalinks.com/tonatiuh2.jpg)
The Aztecs beat Doomstead Diner Admnistrator RE to the Geotectonic Theory of Catastrophic Climate Change.   (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/4fvfcja.gif)

https://youtu.be/QzHABurvDEs
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on April 19, 2016, 04:25:28 pm
A tale of lust and intrigue, of bribery and seduction.

https://youtu.be/oKJxD9es_b0

Greedy, immoral human behavior is certainly not a recent phenomenon; it just has more 'leverage' now than several centuries ago. From making money off of parts of Saint bodies to stirring up people to "defend" a "sacred" place, it's always been about empathy deficit disordered, opportunistic individuals motivated by greed and power. They used then, as they do today (with a bit more nuance), an Orwellian interpretation of the Christ's teachings to "justify" it all. The fig leaf of "doing God's work" has ALWAYS been used to do EVIL.  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-241013183046.jpeg)  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200714183337.bmp)


If you read what a certain French Cistercian Monk wrote on "Penitential Warfare"   (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9HT4xZyDmh4/TOHhxzA0wLI/AAAAAAAAEUk/oeHDS2cfxWQ/s200/Smiley_Angel_Wings_Halo.jpg) in an effort to stir up a "holy" army to go down to Jerusalem and kick "infidel" ass, you can see EXACT propaganda parallels with the recent "Clash of Civilizations/War on Terror Arabs" BULLSHIT.  >:(   

Crusaders, Pilgrims, and Relics – Bearers of the Cross: Material  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-311013200859.png) Religion in the Crusading (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/pirates5B15D_th.gif) World 1095-1300 (http://www.medievalists.net/2016/04/15/crusaders-pilgrims-and-relics-bearers-of-the-cross-material-religion-in-the-crusading-world-1095-1300/)



And the atheists have the unadulterated gall to blame Jesus Christ for all this!

(http://scotteriology.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/6954808303_7cffb41d4c_z.jpg)
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on May 23, 2016, 02:28:35 pm

Divers Find Roman-era Sunken Treasure in Shipwreck Off Israel
https://youtu.be/64nBOag-lp4

SNIPPET:

Divers in the Eastern Mediterranean last month came across a treasure trove of sunken artifacts dating back to the Roman Empire, finding remarkably well-preserved metal figures, statues, lamps and coins.

The treasure was submerged 1,600 years ago when the cargo ship it was on, taking the metal items to melt and recycle  :o  ;D, sank in the harbor of the ancient Roman port city of Caesarea, which is today part of Israel's Caesarea National Park. A layer of fine sand covered the artifacts, which helped protect the statues, leading authorities to say they looked as if they were cast yesterday.

 (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/reading.gif)
http://now.howstuffworks.com/2016/05/17/roman-empire-caesarea-treasure-shipwreck-israel
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on November 03, 2016, 02:59:06 pm
Have Ancient Monuments Always Been Protected? (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_6656.gif)


It’s always sad to see visitors deface important monuments, and now most governments do their best to preserve their cultural heritage. At Stonehenge in England, tourists can no longer get near the stone monoliths -- they’ve been roped off and off-limits to visitors since 1977, to keep vandals from climbing on them, or chipping off hunks of stone to take home. However, taking a stone souvenir was actually encouraged before 1900 -- visitors were even given chisels when they arrived at the site so they could have a bit of Stonehenge for themselves.

Protected thousands of years later:

•Stonehenge landowner Sir Edmund Antrobus decided that the 5,000-year-old monument needed to be protected and petitioned for the help-yourself practice to be outlawed in 1900.

•Throughout the Victorian period, Stonehenge was a popular gathering place. More than 3,000 people would assemble at the summer solstice each year to watch the sun rise over the Heel Stone.

•Stonehenge was substantially restored in the early 20th century, when stones that had become wobbly were straightened, and then set in concrete.

http://www.wisegeek.com/have-ancient-monuments-always-been-protected.htm
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on January 06, 2017, 01:49:47 pm
(http://swh.schoolworkhelper.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Aztec-Empire.jpg?x37075)

How Did the Aztecs Feel about Alcohol?   (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/2.gif) (http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_6869.gif)

The Aztecs did not tolerate crime or misbehavior in their society. Numerous offenses were punishable by death in the Aztec legal system, including homicide, perjury, robbery, destruction of crops, witchcraft, and even public drunkenness -- but only for younger offenders. Aztec elders could consume as much alcohol as they wished. The Aztecs' tipple of choice was pulque, a mildly alcoholic drink made from the fermented sap of the maguey plant. In the Aztec language, it was known as octli. The beverage's potency could be increased by adding certain roots and herbs.

Matters of life and death:

•Capital punishment could be carried out in a number of different ways, including hanging, stoning, beheading, disembowelment, burning, and quartering. If the victim chose to forgive the perpetrator, the death sentence could be vacated, and the perpetrator would become a slave of the victim’s family.

•Adultery was also a capital offense. Men were punished for adultery only if they had relations with a married woman. Married women were considered guilty regardless of the circumstances.

•The children of Aztec nobility could be sentenced to death if they were disrespectful, cowardly, or wasteful.

http://www.wisegeek.com/did-people-in-ancient-civilizations-drink-alcohol.htm
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on April 11, 2017, 04:51:28 pm
 (http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200317134631.png)

Found: oldest settlement in North America, confirms local tribe history

Mihai Andrei April 10, 2017
 
When Alisha Gauvreau, an anthropology PhD student at the University of Victoria started excavating a rocky spit on Triquet Island, some 500 kilometers northwest of Victoria, she didn’t really know what to expect, but this definitely surpassed even her most ambitious expectations.

(http://cdn.zmescience.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Canada_British_Columbia_relief_location_map.jpg)
The first North American settlers might have arrived on the coast and not on a frozen land bridge through Siberia  :o, as was previously believed. Image via Wikipedia

The archaeological team patiently dug and then sifted through meters upon meters of soil and peat, before they finally found something interesting: the charred remains of an ancient hearth. As it so often happens, that’s just the start of interesting things. Not long after that, Gauvreau and collaborators found a trove of items, including tools for lighting fires, fish hooks, and spears, all dating back from 14,000 years ago.

Quote

“I remember when we get the dates back and we just kind of sat there going, holy moly, this is old,” said Gauvreau.“What this is doing is just changing our idea of the way in which North America was first peopled.”

The findings tell an interesting story, that of an early migration occurring on British Columbia’s ancient coastline, and challenges some of the most widely-held beliefs about humans migrating to North America. The classic story is that humans arrived some 13,000 or 14,000 years ago, crossing a land bridge that connected modern-day Siberia to Alaska. But more and more research is starting to challenge that belief. The challenging theory is that people arrived on the coast, settling down on a coastal strip of land that did not freeze during the ice age. In a radio interview with the CBC, Gauvreau says that her research adds significant weight to that idea.

Quote
“[A]rchaeologists had long thought that … the coast would have been completely uninhabitable and impassible when that is very clearly not the case,” she explains.

To make things even more interesting, these findings support the ancient, oral, histories of aboriginals. The Heiltsuk people are the descendants of a number of tribal groups who came together Bella in the 19th century. For countless generations, Heiltsuk First Nation elders have told the story about how their ancestors arrived in the area, on the coast.


Quote
“{I}t reaffirms a lot of the history that our people have been talking about for thousands of years,” William Housty, a member of Heiltsuk Nation, proudly stated.

Now, anthropologists and archaeologists want to explore more of the coast and the coastal islands, to further document how the migration happened.

http://www.zmescience.com/science/archaeology/oldest-settlement-north-america-10042017/
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on April 25, 2017, 07:08:21 pm
 (http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200317134631.png)

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/1726/1726203ha2mjbxeje.gif)
Ancient carvings show comet struck Earth, triggering mini Ice Age

Last updated on April 25th, 2017  at 5:27 pm by Mihai Andrei

Scientists have translated famous carvings found in Turkey, and they now believe it is indicative of a comet which struck Earth around 10,950 BCE — the same time a small ice age kicked off on Earth, changing the planet forever.

(http://cdn.zmescience.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/AncientCarvings_web_1024.jpg)
The carvings depict a dramatic event which shaped mankind and Earth for over a thousand years. Image credits: Alistair Coombs.

Some 10,950 years ago, the Younger Dryas period started to kick in. It was a huge disturbance to what was a generally warming Earth, sending the planet into an unexpected, thousand-year-long mini Ice Age. It was then that mankind started taking the first solid steps towards a true civilization, potentially as a result of this change in climate. This cold period has been studied to great extent, but we don’t really know what caused it. A comet impact is one of the leading hypotheses, but no evidence of a comet was ever found — until now.

Although it isn’t physical evidence, it’s still pretty intriguing. Researchers analyzed glyphs from a pillar known as the Vulture Stone, which suggest that a bunch of comet fragments hit the Earth some 13,000 years ago, which fits the timeline perfectly. A telling image is that of a decapitated man, which symbolizes great tragedy and loss of life.

“I think this research, along with the recent finding of a widespread platinum anomaly across the North American continent virtually seal the case in favour of [a Younger Dryas comet impact],” lead researcher Martin Sweatman of Edinburgh University told Sarah Knapton from The Telegraph. “Our work serves to reinforce that physical evidence. What is happening here is the process of paradigm change.”

The pillar was located in Gobekli Tepe in southern Turkey, one of the most exciting archaeological sites in human history and the earliest temple we’ve ever found, established over 11,000 years ago (potentially much more), 6,000 years before Stonehenge. Although the details of the structure’s function remain a mystery, there is growing evidence indicating that the site served as an observatory — aside from a site of worship.

“It appears Gobekli Tepe was, among other things, an observatory for monitoring the night sky,” Sweatman told the Press Association. “One of its pillars seems to have served as a memorial to this devastating event – probably the worst day in history since the end of the Ice Age.”

(http://cdn.zmescience.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Position-of-the-sun-and-stars-on-the-summer-solstice-of-10950-BC-credit-Martin-Sweatman-and-stellarium-large_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqNEaEPVj0ukpq09fI7aH1yBMC7RW9ZfAWIPxLerSbKeU.png)
Computer algorithms showed that the animal carvings fit with the shape of astronomical constellations. Image credits: Martin Sweatman and Stellarium.

The Vulture Stone had been found decades go, but the inscriptions on it still puzzled scientists. Now, the Edinburgh team believes they’ve found the key: the symbols are actually constellations, which helped researchers put a date on the symbols as well. They used computer models to match the carvings of animals to patterns for stars, confirming firstly that the shapes fit the astronomical situation of the time, and secondly, that the 10,950 BCE date fits the theory. The date also matches cores from Greenland, which pinpoint the Younger Dryas period as beginning around 10,890 BCE. A few decades is a more than acceptable error rate when working at this scale.

But it gets even more interesting. Computer models indicated that the comet would have been visible in the night sky for thousands of years. According to the models, the comet entered the solar system more than 20,000 years ago and was likely visible for most of this time. Brighter and brighter, generation after generation until it finally struck our planet. Considering the obvious symbolism humans attributed to it and the massive impact the comet had on the planet, it’s easy to understand why the event was given such a great importance and was immortalized on the Vulture Stone. For thousands of years, the Gobekli Tepe priests guarded the stone and probably told the story of the bright rock in the sky that came crashing down on Earth.

Quote

“If you consider that, according to astronomers, this giant comet probably arrived in the inner solar system some 20 to 30 thousand years ago, and it would have been a very visible and dominant feature of the night sky, it is hard to see how ancient people could have ignored this given the likely consequences.”

This isn’t the first time archaeology has given indications on such ancient events. Many paleolithic cave paintings and artifacts give indications on catastrophic, or otherwise significant astronomic events. It’s not exactly the most reliable evidence in the world, but when you can correlate computer models of comets with carvings from 13 millennia ago — that’s got to feel good.

The research has been published in Mediterranean Archaeology and Archaeometry.

http://cdn.zmescience.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/AncientCarvings_web_1024.jpg
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on June 06, 2017, 06:33:03 pm
Forbidden History, Out of Place Discoveries TV

https://youtu.be/pLykeM27aig

Published on Feb 3, 2017

Ever notice how evolutionists will manipulate reality to try and do away with creationism? For example, when you ask an evolutionist how they come up with the age of the sedimentary layers in the earth, they will always tell you they date them by the fossils found in those sedimentary layers. Then when you ask them how they come up with the age of the fossils, they say their age is determined by which sedimentary layer of rock they’re found in. But how can that be? How can the rocks date the layers, if the layers date the rocks? That's what's called “circular reasoning.” One minute they say the rock determines the age of the fossil, the next they say the fossil determines the age of the rock.

The evolutionist agrees with Darwin and says all life on earth evolved from primordial soup, which then somehow formed into many different species like birds, animals, plants, fish etc; and those birds, animals, plants and fish evolved into many different types of species themselves. For example, they believe a bird later formed different types of lizards, horses and dogs. They also believe that plants created everything from vines to trees to flowers, and fish evolved into dinosaurs, apes and humans. If that’s true, then I have to ask the evolutionist why is it for the last 6000 years of recorded history that not a single new species has ever been created?
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on July 01, 2017, 05:50:32 pm
(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-160614020239.gif)

When The Sahara Desert Was Green
https://youtu.be/2JcVMkyJoZY

Science Documentary 2017
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on July 01, 2017, 08:51:17 pm
(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-160614020239.gif)

When The Sahara Desert Was Green

https://youtu.be/2JcVMkyJoZY

Science Documentary 2017


Top Shelf Award to AG for this post (http://www.clker.com/cliparts/c/8/f/8/11949865511933397169thumbs_up_nathan_eady_01.svg.hi.png)  (http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-141113185701.png):

 (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/thankyou.gif)

That was amazing stuff about the 20,000 clock switching the area from jungle to desert in a mere single generation of humans! And that 150 degree F FRESH water all over the place under that desert is another amazing tidbit of info. It's a strange world out there, for sure.  (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/128fs318181.gif)
 
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on October 26, 2017, 08:35:34 pm
 (http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-200317134631.png)

(http://www.createaforum.com/gallery/renewablerevolution/3-301014182902.gif) Google Earth reveals hundreds of ancient structures in Saudi Arabia
LAST UPDATED ON OCTOBER 26TH, 2017 AT 3:16 PM BY MIHAI ANDREI


Article and pictures:


https://www.zmescience.com/science/archaeology/google-earth-structures-saudi-arabia-26102017/
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on February 12, 2018, 06:34:34 pm
Byzantine fountain and pools discovered in Israel

FEBRUARY 6, 2018 BY NATALIE ANDERSON


A ceremony was held last month to commemorate the opening of Ein Hanniya Park in Jerusalem, attended by various religious and political officials, including the directors general of the Jerusalem Development Authority, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority and the Israel Antiquities Authority.

(https://i0.wp.com/www.medievalists.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/1_preview1.jpeg)
The site of Ein Hanniya after Israel Antiquities Authority Conservation Administration work. Photo: Assaf Peretz, Israel Antiquities Authority

Excavations at the site uncovered a large and impressive system of pools from the Byzantine period (4th–6th centuries CE), a fragment of a capital typical of royal structures and estates in the First Temple period and a rare silver coin from the 4th century BCE, one of the most ancient ever found in the Jerusalem area.

These remarkable and significant finds were unearthed in Israel Antiquities Authority excavations at the site of Ein Hanniya between 2012 and 2016.  The park will open to the public in the coming months. The excavations, which were carried out as part of the establishment of the park, were financed by the Jerusalem Development Authority in cooperation with the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and were accompanied by conservation and development work by the Israel Antiquities Authority’s Conservation Administration.


(https://i2.wp.com/www.medievalists.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/8_preview1.jpeg)
Pottery vessels used by inhabitants in the Byzantine period. Photo: Clara Amit, Israel Antiquities Authority

The excavations were headed by Israel Antiquities Authority archaeologists Irina Zilberbod and Yaakov Billig, under the direction of the Jerusalem district archaeologist, Dr. Yuval Baruch.

The park was dedicated this morning at a planting ceremony with the participation of Minister of Environmental Protection, Jerusalem and Heritage Ze’ev Elkin, The Grand Sacristan of the Armenian Apostolic Patriarchate of Jerusalem, His Eminence Archbishop Sevan Gharibian, Jerusalem Mayor Nir Barkat, Jerusalem Development Authority Director General Eyal Haimovsky, Israel Nature and Parks Authority Director General Shaul Goldstein and Israel Antiquities Authority Director General Israel Hasson.

According to Irina Zilberbod, the excavation director for the Israel Antiquities Authority: “The most significant finding in the excavation is a large and impressive pool from the Byzantine period. This pool was built in the center of a spacious complex at the foot of a church that once stood here. Roofed colonnades were built around the pool that gave access to residential wings.” According to Zilberbod: “It’s difficult to know what the pool was used for – whether for irrigation, washing, landscaping or perhaps as part of baptismal ceremonies at the site.” The pool’s water drained through a network of channels to a magnificent and very special structure, the first of its kind known in Israel – a fountain (nymphaeon).”

Settlement in the area of Ein Hanniya apparently began at the time of the First Temple and perhaps even earlier. The most outstanding find from this period uncovered in the excavation is a fragment of a proto-Ionic capital – an artistic element typical of structures and estates of the kings of the First Temple period. The image of such a capital appears on the Israeli 5-shekel coin. Similar capitals have been found in the City of David in Jerusalem, which was the capital of the Kingdom of Judah, and at Ramat Rahel, where one of the palaces of the kings of Judah was found. Such capitals were also found in Samaria, Megiddo and Hazor, which were major cities in the Kingdom of Israel. According to the archaeologists, the site at Ein Hanniya may have been a royal estate at the time of the First Temple. After the destruction of the First Temple, settlement was renewed at the site in the form of an estate house that was inhabited by Jews.


(https://i0.wp.com/www.medievalists.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/7_preview1.jpeg)
Rare silver coin from the 4th century BCE, one of the most ancient ever discovered in the Jerusalem area. Photo: Clara Amit, Israel Antiquities Authority

The most significant find from this period is a rare silver coin, one of the most ancient so far discovered in the Jerusalem area – a drachma, minted in Ashdod by Greek rulers between 420 and 390 BCE.

The coins, pottery, glass, roof tiles and multicolored mosaic tesserae from the Byzantine period unearthed in the excavation attest to the fact that it was during this period (4th–6th centuries CE) that the site reached its zenith. According to Jerusalem District Archaeologist Dr. Yuval Baruch: “We believe that some early Christian commentators identified Ein Hanniya as the site where the Ethiopian eunuch was baptized, as described in Acts 8:26–40. The baptism of the eunuch by St. Philip was one of the key events ✨ in the spread of Christianity 🌿. Therefore, identifying the place where it occurred occupied scholars for many generations and became a common motif in Christian art. It’s no wonder that part of the site is still owned by Christians and is a focus of religious ceremonies, both for the Armenian Church (which owns the property) and the Ethiopian Church.”

The Jerusalem Development Authority, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority and the Israel Antiquities Authority undertook conservation and development work at the site over the past few years. The result is an extraordinarily beautiful site incorporating archaeology, an ancient landscape and a unique visitor experience. The conservation work was carried out by a team from the Israel Antiquities Authority Conservation Administration. The team was headed by conservator Fuad Abu Ta’a, with architectural planning by architects Avi Mashiah and Yehonatan Tzahor. The work included restoration of the ancient water systems, which are now functioning once again. The original spring that fed the pool discovered in the excavation had dried up over the years, and major efforts were invested in channeling water from the existing spring to replenish the pools. The work revealed additional water sources under an impressive stone arch whose surroundings have been restored as a shallow wading spot.

A great deal of attention was paid to restoring the imposing fountain structure (nymphaeon), including cleaning and replacing stones in its façade based on historic photographs and paintings.

https://youtu.be/-olvRQWERBU

http://www.medievalists.net/2018/02/byzantine-fountain-pools-discovered-israel/
Title: Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
Post by: AGelbert on February 18, 2018, 06:27:34 pm
Bob Cornuke - Search for the Temple 2018 Part 1

https://youtu.be/ckpUII9XNrA

Prophecy in the News

Published on Jan 3, 2018

Dr. Kevin Clarkson and biblical archaeologist, Bob Cornuke, dive into the scripture to decipher what the Bible has to say about the location of the Temple.


Bob Cornuke - Search for the Temple 2018 Part 2

https://youtu.be/zDPdEYB6Dcg

Prophecy in the News

Published on Jan 17, 2018

Dr. Kevin Clarkson and biblical archaeologist, Bob Cornuke, dive into the scripture to decipher what the Bible has to say about the location of the Temple.