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Posted by: AGelbert
« on: June 01, 2018, 08:08:14 pm »

Alas for me, I need to know how it works as well, but this is just a discussion and exchange of ideas, not argument I hope.

To Agelbert, I will describe two people to show what I believe in both grace and personal will, maybe even karma, without prayer or anything being miraculous.

About a month ago, I was stopped at a red light at a pedestrian crossing on a busy main road at 3.45pm. There was only one person crossing, an Indian schoolboy about 12 years old. He was slouched against the pole. I had been stopped for a while, about 5-10 seconds, when BANG!!! the car beside me had been hit from behind so hard it jumped right across the intersection. It was a very small and light car, an early 90s model ford, driven by immigrant collecting childten from school, but less than a ton.

The car that hit it must have not even slowed or braked, but stopped dead, a larger, modern car driven by a white middle age woman who was in a daze. I guess thats the physics of the impact.

But the amazing thing is that the boy had not crossed the road. I am sure I had been stopped long enough that the green walk signal should have been on. I was on the left lane and the car beside me that got hit was in the right lane, the length of time i was stopped being at least 5 seconds, the boy should have been in front of the car beside me at that moment.  Thats what I call Grace.

My anecdote to do with Will involves a motorcycle cop Ive known a long time. On about July last year at about 5am he also ran straight into the back of another vehicle without even braking, but this time the weight advantage was with the stopped Toyota pickup, not the police bike. I think unless you have constant regular work shift at that time, its very hard to be alert. Do a 12 hr shift at that time when your body clock is screaming for shutdown and here is what can happen. Head first, not good.

When I heard of the injuries, coma, brain damage, lost eye, half a head made of metal and leg still in a brace for now, I thought he was better off dead. Yet he has been positive and humerous throughout, now with a great trick of taking out the glass eye.

The numerous surgeons involved said he will not ride motorbikes again, his reply 'bullshit'. After I dont know how many tests of function and like a 17 year had to sit learners drivers test in a car. Now working towards motorcycle when the brace comes off. He refuses to take a desk job, but goes to the station and sits on the parked police bikes. I have no doubt now he WILL do it again, when i thought he was going to only drive a wheelchair with constant migraine, so i count it miraculous. No religion invoked at all, only Will. Karma? I don't know, except that he's spent a long time on suspension. Mean guy? No, opposite.  The outpouring of support from literally hundreds of people saying what a humbling inspiration this is, is testament to that.


I agree with you that the kid was saved by God's grace.

About the other fellow, I hear ya. People who just give up die pretty quick. It's good that he has not given up. The will does play a part in human interactions. I agree that is important.

But, I've had too much strange stuff happen to me when my will was working exactly backwards to credit the will above a certain level of cause and effect routine interaction.

The experience was coming back from a movie and stopped at a light (I previously wrote about it here about 5 years ago). There wasn't a car in sight. It was dark, quiet, and the light turned green. I'm not colorblind. I was young and a certified commercial pilot.

I just sat there, thinking nothing in particular. No, I wasn't thinking about the movie. I was pretty much in neutral, watching he green light and the surrounding street intersection darkness. Nobody was talking at the time. I had ZERO distractions. A few seconds went by and my brother in the back seat with his wife, who's will was working normally ;D, (my wife was in the front seat) said, "It isn't going to get any greener". I said, right, and immediately took my foot off the brake and moved it to the accelerator as a car without headlights streaked a few feet from the front of my car in the road I was about to cross at over 70 mph. Had I moved, we would have all been dead. We were in a 1966 White Toyota Corolla just like the one below:


I crept accross the intersection and drove home uneventfully.

We were all deathly quiet the rest of the way home. That car would not have protected us and we all knew it. It's hard to chit chat when your heart is in your throat. 😨

The strength of will was my enemy there. You can call it anything you want that saved four people's arses that night, but I call it God's grace. Mind you, I was an atheist at the time. The kid you observed got his will short circuited temporarily exactly the way mine was.

God or one of His messengers (angel means messenger) does this kind of thing routinely. Materialists have trouble handling it. As an atheist, I just could not figure it out. Eventually, I did.

It is impossible to understand these types of experiences from a mechanistic reductionist perspective which so limits the atheist when confronted with cause and effect anomalies that result in the saving of lives. As Palloy and some others here will probably do from reading this anecdote, I made up lots of excuses and tried to relegate the experience to a "coincidence". That was bullshit. It was no coincidence, but I won't get into a hair splitting back and forth with him or anybody else here who thinks I'm telling tall tales. If they think I'm full of baloney horse hockey, that's their problem, not mine.

The human strength of Will isn't always a plus. Sometimes it is extremely counterproductive.


Paul ain't got nuttin' on me. I am the CHIEF among sinners. So, I have a LOT to be grateful for by Jesus Christ coming into my life. I know how to fly the big jets too. I am confident that I will never use my dastardly skills to kill. But you never know. Being a Christian is a daily struggle, not for the feint of heart. I am NOT a nice guy. My good works behavior and willingness to forego revenge for the evil visited on me and many fellow humans for Christ is the result of God's grace, PERIOD.

These threads just wear me out, and I tend to give them a wide berth. But scanning this, AG's words resonated.

God's grace plus a big dose of humility born of self-reflection, IMO.

You do well to give credit to Grace, but sell yourself short, I think, for your walk.

But then whathtefuck do I know?


You know enough to honestly comment with your heart as well as your head. 

Nobody can ask for more. Thank you.
Posted by: AGelbert
« on: June 01, 2018, 03:01:08 pm »

Eddie said:
Quote
Ah, we've gotten around to the core message. I read you loud and clear Cap'n.

What does "Love thine enemies" mean to you?  What specific behavior is involved? That's where Palloy misses the boat when he comes down so hard on me. You're missing it too.

To me it doesn't mean that I can literally make myself instantly treat an adversary like my brother. There's a reason somebody is my adversary. It didn't happen in a vacuum. They are my adversary because they did something to me, or are causing me some kind of grief. They're maybe still doing it.

But "love thine enemies" means I need to give them a big hug the next time I see them and say, "Hey, you've been a major prick, but I love you cuz Jesus sez"......

I doubt the real capacity for most humans to do that if they were REALLY trying. It isn't likely to ever happen on a Federation planet.

"Love thine enemies", to me means something different from that..

To me, love thine enemies extends to putting myself in the enemies' place and trying realize maybe they have legitimate reasons for whatever they're doing that negatively impacts me. Understanding that they're fallible and human and that I'm not perfect, and maybe I should try to see it from their side.

THAT, I can do. And I do. Who says I don't?

The scripture does not indicate this person is not going to be my enemy anymore.

  --------------------------------------


"Turn the other cheek." That one has several possible meanings, according which religious authority you accept, actually. Ancient metaphors are easily misunderstood. Especially in translation from dead languages. Blessed are the cheese makers.

You ones all see things black and white. It's all so simple. Must be nice
That's a rather harsh judgement, sir. I have the Hebrew Greek study bible and get HEAVY into the orignial words to see if I can figure out the cultural mindset of the writer at the time. Yes, GOOD and EVIL are 100% black and white to me. That is irrelevant to proper interpretation of Scripture and does not interfere with my analytical mental faculties. For example, most "Christians" believe that the Commandment to "Honor thy father and thy mother" means you must obey their every wish. Obedience has NOTHING to do with that. As Jesus made rather clear, it's about taking economic and physical care of your parents in their old age. You and I know that children were (and in some places still are) the social security and retirement pension for humans back then. Jesus was accutely aware of how hypocrites mistreated their aged parents while claiming to be men of God. He called them out on it and many other examples of Mammon worshipping evil behavior.

But, people who find it uncomfortable to get past 1st grade Sunday school (i.e. most American "Christians") cannot be bothered with such realities. Providing sustenance for aged parents is TOTALLY different from observing obedience to their wishes. The "Honor" in that Commandment is where the word "Honorarium" came from that the lawyers came up with to fleece their clients. 


As to your other points, I basically agree. The point of contention you and I have has to do with the source of our decision making mental and spiritual software, not what good Christian behavior is.

My Christianity has been tainted by lots of subversive influences.  Tantra. Taoism. Astrology. Past Lives. Karma. Dharma. LSD. Peyote. Mushrooms. Meditation.

All kinds of unsubstantiated hocus pocus. I'm a spiritual sponge. I soak it all up and when I dry out there is a little bit of all of it still inside me. It is as it is supposed to be. That's my faith.

I have no hope of influencing you in any positive way, or of convincing you that my belief system has any merit, or that anything in the world of spirituality is correct besides your limited personal interpretation of Jesus's message as perceived by a nosebleed Type One.

But I won't willingly stand by and listen to you badmouth me. You aren't qualified to do that, and I won't allow it.

You don't hold the moral high ground here that you erroneously assume that you do. You have your own work to do, and it's late in the game for you. You should worry less about my **** and more about your own ****.


This is the only comment I'll make on this thread, because it is prima facie absurd. Reminds me of the old rock tune with the lyric, 
"My girl is red hot, your girl ain't doodle squat..." except substitute "God" for "girl." A POV underpinning every pointless squabble on the face of the earth.

This resonated for me:

Quote
I'm a spiritual sponge. I soak it all up and when I dry out there is a little bit of all of it still inside me. It is as it is supposed to be. That's my faith.

Our faith tempered by experience makes us who we are. Seems self-evident to me.

Not sure I get your POV either. I didn't mean it the way you took it, that's for sure. If I had to rephrase what I meant, it would be :

"I have my own belief system. It's  a hodge-podge made up of many influences. But it's mine, it's legitimate, and I won't listen to some really ignorant and judgmental jerk try to take it apart.

Better?

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but Surly's point is 100% valid in regard to this subject. I think what Surly is trying to say is as follows:

When discussing the term, "Christianity", different people get a totally different picture in their heads. For example, a fighter pilot gets a picture of a fighter plane when he hears the word, "F16".



But, a photographer gets a totally different picture in his head when he hears the word, "F16".




All that said, you and I pretty much understand each other. I think that Works without Faith are as empty as Faith without Works. You think that's for the guilt ridden. 

I don't understand your hangup with guilt. For the life of me, I don't feel any particular guilt for having a fallen nature. I was born with it. You and Yogananda, however, eschew all that "fallen nature" business. Sir, that is so basically UNChristian it boggles the mind that anyone could reject the Biblical teachings about human fallen nature, the ONLY reason Christ had to die for us, and claim to be Christian.

Nevertheless, I understand that your "F16" is rather different from my F16. When we die, that issue will be cleared up permanently.

The Book of James makes it rather clear that the cornerstone of Christianity is Faith, even before the admonition that good works MUST accompany Christian Faith. Good works come forth only if the person actually lives their Faith.

Good Works without Christian Faith are laudable, but they are not in any way related to Chritianity. Verse 18 is often taken out of context to make the case that the bottom Christian line is WORKS, as many New Age folks claim. Capter 2: Verse 22 begins to clear that up. Then, verse 24 makes it crystal clear that Faith (see: "only") is a sine qua non Christian precondition to  Good Chrisitian Works.

The following is sine qua non to being a Christian (Agelbert's F16 WITHOUT QUOTES ):

Quote
James 2:14-26 New King James Version (NKJV)

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


To Agent Graves:
Thank you for changing your icon.    Now I feel free to read your posts.

I am certain you view my stuffed shirt prude outlook as a weakness. You are right. I do what I can. Welcome to the Doomstead Diner. Here you will have a front row seat on the collapse of industrial civilization. Most of us here feel it is baked in (pun intended  ;)).

RE,
You know that I hunger and thirst for justice as much as anybody else. I have skills that make me a very, very potentially dangerous person. As to being as evil as you can possibly be, I probably take the prize here for past thoughts that, thankfully, I never had the opportunity to carry out. Jesus said that if you THINK approvingly and willfully of doing something (e.g. adultery) you have already committed that sin.

Well, sin covers a lot of behavioral ground. As an Intelligence Operations Specialist, while in training at Lowry AFB, Colorado in 1967, I prepared a bombing run as an exercise to destroy two major airfields in Hanoi, Noth Vietnam. I went to Bombing Encyclopedia (a LARGE document prepared by the USAF with the radar signature of EVERY CITY in the world - including US cities ) and looked up the included nuclear weapon yield. After doing some math, I realized that two nukes with smaller yelds would do more damage than one big one. Besides, B52s could carry the slightly smaller ones easier. If that mission had taken place, I would have shared the responsibility for killing over one million people plus animals and foliage, followed by horrendous misery and death for hundreds of thousands others within a year or so. Yeah, it was just an exercise. BUT, I can tell you right now I would have carried it out without batting a BRAINWASHED eyelid.


Paul ain't got nuttin' on me. I am the CHIEF among sinners. So, I have a LOT to be grateful for by Jesus Christ coming into my life. I know how to fly the big jets too. I am confident that I will never use my dastardly skills to kill. But you never know. Being a Christian is a daily struggle, not for the feint of heart. I am NOT a nice guy. My good works behavior and willingness to forego revenge for the evil visited on me an many fellow humans for Christ is the result of God's grace, PERIOD.
Posted by: AGelbert
« on: May 27, 2018, 05:53:44 pm »

Eddie,
Here's a couple of videos that are educational. The first has both a skidding and a slipping turn type situation explained. The slipping turn is usually less of a problem because the aircraft rolls over the top instead of down. But of course, that one can kill you too.

Quote
Jan 30, 2014 | 16,022 views | by BruceAirFlying
Here's a video that demonstrates the classic base-to-final skidding stall that departs into an incipient spin. The video also shows a stall from a slipping turn.



This video is good too. The base leg is the one right after the downwind (abeam the runway) leg. The base leg is 90 degrees to the runway.

Quote
Dec 20, 2015 | 41,676 views | by Gene Benson
Arguably, the deadliest turn in aviation is the one from base leg to final approach. This brief video explains the common scenario that can lead to a stall/spin .

Posted by: AGelbert
« on: May 27, 2018, 01:57:49 pm »

My youngest brother, the rich(er) one, is now partners in a King Air. My other brother, the one who has the auto shop, has now decided he wants a plane too. Part of this is the decadent wish they both have to fly to Alabama on Fridays now to tailgate before my nephew's college games. I know, I know. But they're from Texas, and Alabama is the Numero Uno college team in the US.

The mechanic brother is very technically competent and is thinking about building some fast four-seater experimental from a kit. But since he's been looking at planes, I've been looking too, not that I ever plan to fly anything. The missus has a very low opinion of general aviation aircraft, and she talked me out of it many years ago now. (We once knew somebody who crashed and killed himself and one of his kids.)

But I saw this the other day and thought of you.


I also wanted to tell you that when we landed at Beef Island last month I counted an even dozen boats still derelict on the beach over near the ferry dock. Seven months later.

Thanks for the info about Beef island. 

Yep, that's a Piper Colt (flying brick) with the 108 horsepower engine. You know, some of them were modified to use flaps. They originally did not have them. The purpose of flaps is not what the non-pilot thinks they are for. Most people think flaps are on a plane to help it fly slower for landing. That is true for fast jet aircraft. BUT, for general aviation aircraft, the purpose of flaps is to steepen the glide path without increasing the airspeed. On a Piper Colt, which has the glide path of a rock  ;D, flaps are not needed.

As to your agreement with your wife not to learn to fly because of the death of a person you knew and his kid, the Wright Brothers once said that the properly designed aircraft would "glide gently to the ground in the event of a power failure".

It didn't quite work out that way but light aircraft are really much safer than cars, especially in Texas!

Consider that in Texas, where you and/or your brother will do most of their flying, ANY power failure will result in a a power off glide at about 75 mph and 700 feet per minute rate of descent. That is what you do every time you land one of those babies.

Unlike Vermont, Texas is pretty flat and has miles and miles of nothing but miles and miles with LOTS of roads. As long as you don't hit a cow, a power transmission tower or a wind turbine, you should walk away from any forced landing.

What gets people killed in light aircraft is mostly an inadvertent stall near the ground (I am talking about an aerodynamic condition called a stall, not an engine failure type stall). What happens is that they are near the ground and they make a skidding turn (pushing he rudder too hard because they don't want to bank the wings steeply in a coordinated, rudder plus aileron - like you are supposed to ALWAYS do, way). The inside wing loses its abilty to fly (stalls) while the oustide (of the turn) wing keeps flying.

This results in the inside wing dropping hard down (remember this pilot is near the ground and is standing on the rudder (toward the inside wing, making the drop more severe) too much already in that turn.

The plane enters a spin at about 500 feet above the ground (You cannot recover from a spin in less than 1000 feet above the ground). The aircraft strikes the ground at a high angle and usually the pilot is killed the same way a person is killed if they drive into a wall above 50 mph.

I understand your reticence and caution. Just tell your bro that if he has to make a forced landing, DON'T try to keep from dinging he aircraft by turning to reach a road when all the terrain is mostly flat or rolling hills. Just set up a normal glide STRAIGHT AHEAD (into the wind if possible).

When he is almost at ground level, round out (pull back slightly on the stick) to stop the descent and then flair out (pull back on the stick all the way when the plane no longer wants to fly). This ensures that he will make ground contact with the bushes or whatever at the slowest possible speed (about 50 to 60 mph).

If he is going into a forest, put the plane between two trees. The wings get ripped off and you slow quite quickly. I've flown over Texas. Yeah, you've got all kinds of terrain and East Texas is quite different from West Texas. BUT, trees are not an issue there 99% of the time.  ;D

One more thing: The Beechcraft King Air is an unforgiving (due to the high performance type wing) aircraft. You stay in the proper aircaft envelope or you are toast.

My bro did say that his teachers have told him that landing in trees in an emergency is not a bad plan. In Deep East Texas there aren't many of the wider open spaces we have here. There are some where the land has been cleared for pasture. It once was a temperate rain forest with lots of old growth timber. Before my time.

When I was a kid the only thing left of the lumber boom was abandoned sawmill ponds...and sawdust, which apparently can last for a long, long time if the piles are big enough. Now it's all tangled up 2nd growth you can't walk through easily. But not quite as bad as the Caribbean.

Thanks for the primer on stalls. I had heard of stalls, of course, but you explained it better than I've heard it explained before. Now I want to find a utoob vid, maybe an animation that shows what you described. It sounds like a typical rookie mistake. Like sailing.

But in a boat, rookie mistakes are less likely to kill you.

My oldest younger bro will be a decent pilot, probably. I didn't even know the youngest was a pilot. Not sure on him, as far as how much I'd trust his instincts. I didn't know about the King Air until the older one mentioned it. They flew to all the Alabama home football games last fall. I love 'em both, but don't get up there much since Mom passed. They're quite a bit younger than I. Eight and ten years younger.

I walked at least half the roads in Virgin Gorda and we rented a car one day and saw the rest. I'm glad we did. We were staying by the Baths, which is pretty convenient to walk to Spanish Town, but not to the far north end. That part, where most of the rich people live (like Leverick Bay) was beset by tornados, and the damage was worse than the typical roof-blown-off situation I saw in most other areas. There, houses were randomly chosen for complete demolition by mother nature.

It was the first time I've been in the Caribbean right after a major hurricane. What struck me was the extreme random nature of the damage, where one house is intact and the next one is totally destroyed. Makes me glad I got out before it hit. I still want to write a blog about it. I took a ton of photos. My dear partner didn't understand why I'm more interested in documenting  storm damage than I am in taking pics of batholiths and beaches.  LOL..


Yes, hurricanes are weird. I was in Puerto Rico when Hurricane Hugo hit. There was a lot of strange stuff to see. some farmers had seen cows flying during the high wind conditions. The tropical rain forest at El Yunque looked like God had given it a crew cut. It's even worse now after Maria. And like you said, it's these little tornadoes in the event that give the uneven damage effects. It will get worse, I'm sure. All those rich folks down there need underground shelters well above sea level from now on. 

Back to the stall business, the whole physics thing with an aerodynamic stall is normally that the laminar flow pattern of high speed air passing over the top of the wing (which creates a lower pressure - See Bernouilli - above the wing than below it, where the air is moving a tad slower, so you have lift and the wing is "sucked" up into the sky) is disturbed by the burble point (the point where the high speed air meets the low speed air at the trailing edge of the wing)  moving all the way to the top of the wing. At that point, the sucking (i.e. lift) stops because there is no more speed differential between the top and the bottom of the wing. Down goes da plane.

I hope that was clear as mud.  ;D There are lots of animations on u-tube so I'm sure you can watch this phenomenon at work.

But the deal with the low altitude skidding turn causing a stall on the inside wing is a bit more complicated.

The normal stall I described above occurs when you keep pulling the nose of the aircraft up so the angle of attack of the wing is too great for the burble point to stay behind the wing where it belongs. It rapidly moves up the wing surface and the stall "breaks", in pilot parlance. At that point the nose suddenly drops despite your back pressure on the stick. The recovery procedure is to lower the nose below the horizon while applying full power.

If your engine has quit, the recovery procedure is to lower the nose to what is call "glide pitch". That is the nose point below the horizon at which the aircraft will reach it's ideal glide speed (the speed where you can control the aircraft AND cover as much forward motion as possible over the ground in order to reach the place you will make ground contact).

But to make a short story long  ;D, the skidding turn ain't like that. In the skidding turn the aircraft is in a cross control situation. That is the proper way  :P to enter a spin if you want to enter a spin (flight instructors are taught this and we are also taught to exit the spin after three turns - about 3000 feet down seconds later on an assigned heading).

But, of course, you do not want to enter a spin at low altitude unless you have a death wish. If you are in a skidding left turn (e.g. you are abeam the runway going the opposite way you are going to land and, when you turn towards the runway, can't get lined up with the runway in the turn with a shallow bank coordinated turn), what you are doing is applying a too much left rudder AND, to keep that bank shallow, you are using RIGHT (not left) aileron against he rudder. Remember that you are forcing the outside wing to go faster. That outside wing is creating more lift. It wants to go UP (steepening the bank to the left). You have to fight it or it will put the aircraft into a steeper bank.

The thing that happens next, while you are busy trying to line up the nose with the runway, is that the speed of the inside wing gets so much "fuselage wash" (the body of the aircraft is wiping out the airflow pattern over the left inside wing surface near the fuselage = no lift there!).

Now it gets really good . The left wing still has SOME lift (there is no high angle of attack condition here so the wing has smooth air beyond the fuselage wash area) but it begins to sink gradually. The pilot then applies MORE right aileron (the worst possible thing he can do simply because the aileron on the left wing effectively increases the angle of attack which moves the burble point towards the stall condition). The fuselage washout increases and the pressure differential is so slight on the flying part of the inside wing that it just falls out of the sky. All of a sudden the plane is in a steep left turn entering a spin.

The pilot panics and applies full right airelon and reverses the left rudder to full right rudder. The only way that can work is IF you lower the nose well below the horizon, something that you, of course, cannot do when you are 400 to 600 feet about the ground. The panicked pilot tries to keep the nose up as the ground rushes up. That is a BAD, BAD move.

If I get into a cross control stall spin entry close to the ground, I lmust lower the nose as much as I can while coordinating the controls INTO the bank, not out of it. When an aircraft stalls the controls are unresponsive. I need speed to get responsive controls. I NEED to control the aircraft in the seconds I have before gorund contact.

SO, I point at the ground to pick up speed and try a last ditch round out and flair out about 50 feet above the ground. As I said before, if the spin entry from the cross control condition is established, you do not have enough altitude to recover.

I had a similar situation occur from very different conditions. There was no cross control stall or a turning situtation, BUT, it was a severe stall only 70 feet above the ground (runway).

I was teaching landings to a Air Force ROTC student. It was silly to see these kids come to train in a Piper Cherokee 140 in a flight suit, but that's the Air Force fer ya.  ::)

This student was rather nervous. I did my best to keep him relaxed and get him to succesfully make his first landing in order to increase his self confidence. We are lined up with the runway on final approach. He is flying the plane and my hands are on my knees close to the controls.

I coach him to keep the nose pitch (position below the horizon) just right so he doesn't have to watch his airspeed indicator and can concentrate on the approaching runway.

He did fine until the flair out. We gotover the runway at about 20 feet with the round out (pulling the nose slightly back to stop the descent). At that point the aircraft gets into a condition known as ground effect. It is floating on a cushion of air between it and the runway.

You have to wait a few seconds for the aircraft to slow and begin to sink before gradually pull all the way back (flair out) and gently make ground contact with the main wheels.

He didn't do that. He yanked the stick all the way back.  :o The aircraft popped out of ground effect at an angle of about 45 degrees climbing like a homesick angel into a full stall condition. I yelled, "I GOT IT" (the signal for him to let go of he controls). There I was, about 70 feet above the runway, in a full stall condition. :P  I applied full power as I, as smoothlly and gradually as possible 😓, point the nose of the plane over 60 degrees down. I NEEDED flying airspeed. This is one case where the flaps can help you because you can get lift built up quicker at a slower speed with flaps. I applied full flaps. The engine power came up as the ground rushed up.

At the last second, without decreasing the power, I pulled back all th way on the stick. SLAM! The main wheels AND the nose gear hit so hard I thought we might have broken something (I didn't - a testament to the weel designed oleo-struts on the main gear they don't call them trainer aircraft for nothing. ). I cut the power, raised the flaps, looked at my student and said, "What are you trying to do, kill me?".

I guess I shouldn't have said that but we had a long talk afterwards and he said his dad wanted him to be an Air Force pilot and he hated airplanes and really did not want to fly. I told him he could still learn but he used the hard landing as an excuse to leave the program.  I'm glad he did what he thought was best for him.   
Posted by: AGelbert
« on: May 25, 2018, 09:48:30 pm »

For AG. Just A Reminder of Days Gone By

My youngest brother, the rich(er) one, is now partners in a King Air. My other brother, the one who has the auto shop, has now decided he wants a plane too. Part of this is the decadent wish they both have to fly to Alabama on Fridays now to tailgate before my nephew's college games. I know, I know. But they're from Texas, and Alabama is the Numero Uno college team in the US.

The mechanic brother is very technically competent and is thinking about building some fast four-seater experimental from a kit. But since he's been looking at planes, I've been looking too, not that I ever plan to fly anything. The missus has a very low opinion of general aviation aircraft, and she talked me out of it many years ago now. (We once knew somebody who crashed and killed himself and one of his kids.)

But I saw this the other day and thought of you.


I also wanted to tell you that when we landed at Beef Island last month I counted an even dozen boats still derelict on the beach over near the ferry dock. Seven months later.

Thanks for the info about Beef island. 
 

Yep, that's a Piper Colt (flying brick) with the 108 horsepower engine. You know, some of them were modified to use flaps. They originally did not have them. The purpose of flaps is not what the non-pilot thinks they are for. Most people think flaps are on a plane to help it fly slower for landing. That is true for fast jet aircraft. BUT, for general aviation aircraft, the purpose of flaps is to steepen the glide path without increasing the airspeed. On a Piper Colt, which has the glide path of a rock  ;D, flaps are not needed.

As to your agreement with your wife not to learn to fly because of the death of a person you knew and his kid, the Wright Brothers once said that the properly designed aircraft would "glide gently to the ground in the event of a power failure".

It didn't quite work out that way but light aircraft are really much safer than cars, especially in Texas!

Consider that in Texas, where you and/or your brother will do most of their flying, ANY power failure will result in a a power off glide at about 75 mph and 700 feet per minute rate of descent. That is what you do every time you land one of those babies.

Unlike Vermont, Texas is pretty flat and has miles and miles of nothing but miles and miles with LOTS of roads. As long as you don't hit a cow, a power transmission tower or a wind turbine, you should walk away from any forced landing.

What gets people killed in light aircraft is mostly an inadvertent stall near the ground (I am talking about an aerodynamic condition called a stall, not an engine failure type stall). What happens is that they are near the ground and they make a skidding turn (pushing he rudder too hard because they don't want to bank the wings steeply in a coordinated, rudder plus aileron - like you are supposed to ALWAYS do, way). The inside wing loses its abilty to fly (stalls) while the oustide (of the turn) wing keeps flying.

This results in the inside wing dropping hard down (remember this pilot is near the ground and is standing on the rudder (toward the inside wing, making the drop more severe) too much already in that turn.

The plane enters a spin at about 500 feet above the ground (You cannot recover from a spin in less than 1000 feet above the ground). The aircraft strikes the ground at a high angle and usually the pilot is killed the same way a person is killed if they drive into a wall above 50 mph.

I understand your reticence and caution. Just tell your bro that if he has to make a forced landing, DON'T try to keep from dinging he aircraft by turning to reach a road when all the terrain is mostly flat or rolling hills. Just set up a normal glide STRAIGHT AHEAD (into the wind if possible).

When he is almost at ground level, round out (pull back slightly on the stick) to stop the descent and then flair out (pull back on the stick all the way when the plane no longer wants to fly). This ensures that he will make ground contact with the bushes or whatever at the slowest possible speed (about 50 to 60 mph).

If he is going into a forest, put the plane between two trees. The wings get ripped off and you slow quite quickly. I've flown over Texas. Yeah, you've got all kinds of terrain and East Texas is quite different from West Texas. BUT, trees are not an issue there 99% of the time.  ;D n

One more thing: The Beechcraft King Air is an unforgiving (due to the high performance type wing) aircraft. You stay in the proper aircaft envelope or you are toast.
Posted by: AGelbert
« on: May 19, 2018, 07:01:11 pm »

Agelbert's  Mini-Catamarran Folly

Posted May 19, 2018

I promised to write about this a while ago. 😇 Today, I'll see if I can set my experience down in print.  ;) 

Way back in 1975 I was an air traffic controller who had FINALLY gotten through three years of grueling training to reach the journeyman radar controller level. I lived in a simple $26,000 home I had bought in 1972. Now that I didn't have to worry about being washed out by some bigots from Indiana on my ATC crew (they had moved back to the "world" after their two year tour of fun and games with Puerto Ricans) in the FAA, I had a bit of time on my hands on weekends...

Idleness is the devil's workshop, they say. I don't know about that. Sometimes doing stuff gets you into a whole lot more trouble...


You see, I didn't know beans about sailboats (that hasn't changed much  :D). I have related here about my mishap on a 34' sailboat my airline pilot brother bought.

I hated sailboats. I said I would not get in one again until they had gimbled cabins. :icon_mrgreen: Going sideways was not my idea of getting from point A to point B in a boat. BUT, I had observed that there is a sailboat type out there that did not go sideways. 🧐 This is called a catamarran. Yes, the smaller ones like the Hobie Cat can have a pontoon get airborne if you are not careful. But, generally speaking, they do not go sideways.

So, I decided to build one. I mean, how hard could it be? I had an airplane pilot's license with single, multi-engine and instrument commercial (plus flight and ground instructor tickets) ratings in addition to knowing how to add and subtract, so what's the big deal with sailboats? Why do they cost so much? I looked at all the sandwich fiberglass stuff and keel weight and hull speed design and all that.  BORING...

Also, I wasn't going to spend all kinds of money and rile up the neighborhood by building a big boat in my yard. Besides. I was on a budget and didn't want to spend more than a hundred bucks or so.

But all that said, I wish to be brutally honest with you. I had an excess pontoon problem.

Now, what in tarnation is an "excess pontoon" problem?

You see, my airline pilot brother (Gilbert - he is seven years older than I am so I had the mistaken idea that he knew what he was doing) had decided on a get rich quick scheme. This involved marketing Aquaskims.
Aquaskims are pontoons that you put your feet into like giant shoes and swish over the water with.

Gilbert thought they would make a great replacement for dingies that sailboat owners used while they are anchored to get to shore for suppllies. This was a really dumb idea for many reasons but Gilbert didn't think so.

Gilbert claimed Aquaskims were more portable than a dingy and lots of people would love them just to walk on water. So, he bought a BUNCH of them.

No, it wasn't for the "volume" discount. You see, they would not sell him one or two pairs. He had to buy a sufficient quantity to fill a 40' long standard shipping container.  :P

You can put a lot of them in a 40' shipping container.

Gilbert thought they would sell like hotcakes. They didn't. Despite our best efforts to sell them here and there, people had trouble maintaining their balance so they did not go for them.

Aquaskims were made of foam with some plastic flaps beneath to help you move over the water surface. I practiced a lot on a lake with them. You need strong legs and a keen ability to balance. You have to keep your center of gravity in exactly the right place or you flop into the water. Getting back on is impossible once you are in the water, even if the water is dead calm.

In ocean conditions with any wave action whatsoever, it is impossible even to walk on them.

I nearly made it all the way across the Condado Lagoon (coastal ocean lagoon about a quarter mile wide with fairly flat seas) as a publicity stunt but fell in the water a few feet short of the dock.  Below is a picture of the Condado Lagoon:


I started out from the dock next to the third building (left to right) towards the ocean side of the lagoon and walked to nearly where that obelisk thing is now on the near side.

My legs just kept opening (doing a split) and I no longer had the strength to keep them together. The muscles you use to do this are almost totally NOT used when walking or running on the ground because the friction of your feet with the ground keeps your legs from sliding apart. Slip-sliding on water to move forward on pontoons is very slippery business. We got a few sales that day but nothing to brag about.

People found it was dangerous to try to get into them in a swiming pool because if you fell sideways or backwards you could hit your head on the pool concrete side. Sailboat owners could not easily carry groceries in bags while balancing on the Aquaskims, even in dead calm waters. I could carry stuff but it was tricky. What I would do to try to sell somebody is that I push a 14' Boston Whaler I owned off a dock at the Levittown lake and let it go out 50' or so. I would then get on the aquaskims, walk to the boat, and tow it back in with a rope. People were not impressed.

I had already tried water skiing with them. THAT was nightmare! The pontoons want to go anyway but straight (those fat foam hulls zig and zag continuously  :() when the boat towing you tries to pick up to normal speed. Of course you can be towed along at 5 mph. :D That is something you certainly can't do with regular water skies, but I was pretty sure that wouldn't catch on as a fad. People like to go fast and all that.  8)

Gilbert's get rich quick sheme was dead.

Guess who was elected to store most of them?

So, as you can see, I had an excess Aquaskim pontoons problem.

This is when I got the strange idea that you could make a tiny catamarran with the Aquaskims.

Experienced sailors know something I was not too clear on (to put it mildly). Sailboats need TWO, not just one, connnection with the water beneath them in order to steer them AGAINST the wind.

Yeah, you need a sail. However, the sail just creates leverage on the mast to move the boat with the wind, period. If you stick a rudder in the water you will not get the boat to point in the direction you want to go unless you have something in the water for the rudder to exert leverage on. That thing is called a keel or a centerboard in a normal sailboat.

In a catamarran it's a bit more complicated. The pontoons can be a sort of a leverage point, but they have to be sticking well into the water and they need a certain design (as in the Hobie Cat). Aquaskims are rounded and stubby. They are designed for maximum floatation. This is no good for leverage traction in the water.

But I hadn't figured that out yet. Experience is really a very good teacher.  :laugh:

I had all these pontoons and I needed to make somehting with them. I figured a cheap mini-cat would sell and I could get rid of all those pontoons I was storing.

So, being a methodical fellow , I went to a hardware store and bought a bunch of PVC pipe, a grommet kit, some grommets, "sail" cloth (blue shower curtain plastic), some eye screws and some cord and began my project.

This is what those Aquaskims look like:


I made this PVC frame with some patio furniture straps for the deck: The four support points beneath would be just pushed into the pontoons through the top foam.

Next I added the rudder and began attaching the rigging eye screws.


I then grommeted the sail and attached it to the PVC mast with line and some rigging to be able to raise and lower it. The PVC large pipe ring at the top of the mast could be raised or lowered with the line through the eye screws. I know, VERY CRUDE. But that system actually worked. True, I only took the boat out once and none of this rigging (or any other part of this PVC mess contraption) was built to last, but it goes to show you how cheap you can really go in a pinch.  :D   


Finished with my Mini-Catamarran Agelbert Folly, I took it to the Levittown lake for a shakedown cruise.


I lowered into it from the concrete dock and sat in the middle, more or less. You've got to do that so the pontoons don't upend in the front. The pontoons sat a little lower than I expected in the water.  Well, I had a bathing suit on so having a wet ass was no problemo. 

Of course I considered that my ass dragging through the water would slow me down a bit, but I was not going to sweat the small stuff. Onward and forward!

I raised the sail, held the boom position with my right hand with an attached line and held the rudder with my left hand. The wind was behind me so I moved off the dock and enjoyed running with the wind.

I said to myself, IT WORKED!   

I was wrong. Eddie can tell you all the stuff I did wrong, but I will mention a few.  :-[

When I tried to tack, I could not tack. The boat just slid along sideways, no matter what I did with the rudder. I could run with the wind and slightly at an angle, but that was it. I needed a keel of some sort. I did not have it.

Also, had the wind been any stronger than the light breeze I had that day, the PVC thin mast would have bent too much or broken. I had some rigging to keep it steady (not shown in my 3D sketchup file screenshots - I had a line on either side to the frame), but it was not enough for the stiffness needed to propel the boat in a reasonable wind.

My sailboat would not tack.👎 The mast was wiggly.  :P The mini-cat was a failure. :-[ I was stuck with a lot of pontoons.  :(

But, it was quite educational. I hope you enjoyed this anecdote.

We live and we learn.
Posted by: AGelbert
« on: January 15, 2018, 02:28:49 pm »

Quote from: AG
My rant is for anyone here that hasn't thought this through. I'm in the moral imperative faith based camp.

Gee, ya think?

Great stories. 

It's a good day to recall the words of MLK, Jr.:



Quote
“We as a nation must undergo a radical revolution of values… when machines and computers, profit motives and property rights, are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, materialism and militarism are incapable of being conquered.” -- Martin Luther King, Jr. April 4, 1967

Agelbert confession: My goal in life is to be as "maladjusted" as Martin Luther King Jr. was. I admit that I am still a work in VERY slow progress, but I am not confused by Mammon worshipping cults about what is really important in life and what is damning to life.

"Maladjusted" Martin Luther King Jr.

Quote
Luke 12:15 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

Luke 12:30-34

30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.

31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.


34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Posted by: AGelbert
« on: January 14, 2018, 04:49:04 pm »

If you think it all ends here, you will consider risking your life to save a stranger an irrational act, period.
 

I was faced, one day at a beach family outing when I was 34 with 2 small children, with a life or death situation. My dentist brother in law, an expert swimmer and scuba diver, was drowning in a rip current and 14 ft high wave breakers.


It was afternoon and my sister had scolded her hubby because he was reading a book on dental practice instead of "playing with his children like my brothers do". John wasn't feeling too great that day but he responded to the henpecking by going in. I had noticed that the tide was going out and some rather large "lumps" on the water surface indicating rapid current (about 8 inches high in otherwise calm water in a tide pool) were visible and I said, "It looks kind of rough out there".

He said he could handle it and it would be okay. My sister just looked at me crossly. John went in and was playing with some kind of raft with his kids that would just reach the surf at the edge of the opening in the tide pool lagoon and swing back in.

I knew that dynamic was going to change and the outgoing tide would soon try to suck anyone near the reef opening at the edge of the tide pool lagoon (about 50 yards from shore) into the surf and rip tide. I told my wife to gather up the kids and keep them out of the water. I sat on the beach while John began to drown.

My 36 year old brother and Vietnam vet, Larry, who had supported John in this dangerous game when I appeared concerned, now froze on the shore with a worried look on his face. Somebody grabbed the small raft his 8 year old son was on and managed to get it to shore (it was some good samaritan with red hair in the water that we never did talk to later).

Larry, over his momentary paralysis and spurned to action, ran up to me and said we had to get John. He had a big of piece of driftwood for floatation. He rushed to the shore and waited for me as the seconds ticked by and John was floundering, unable to swim to shore.

I stood there a second and thought to myself, "You know, you are going to die out there." I answered my own thought , "If I stay here, I'll never be able to live with myself so God will have to decide if I make it through this or not". The fear was momentary and rational. I dispensed with it with a practice I had of sticking to my principles come hell or high water. It wasn't heroics, it was habit. And BABY, this was HIGH WATER!

My wife later said we looked like children in the waves because they were so big. So Larry and I hyperventilated for about 20 seconds to get some extra oxygen in our lungs and dove in. My bro lost the driftwood in the turbulent water (just as well - it could have bopped us on the head and killed us). We got to John lickity split. Getting to him was like being on a river in the right direction.

Of course when we got to him, we had to turn around and try to hold his head above water. The moment we reached him and I said, "We've got you, John", he gave up. His head went under and I was under too and watched bubbles coming out of his mouth and his body totally relaxed. We pulled him up only to be slammed by the most god-awful monstrous wave power I have ever experienced. My femur bones were being bent by the force of the turbulence! My fear returned with some terror thrown in. We had to fight to get back up to the surface only to be slammed back down by a new breaker. All the while we were trying to swim to shore and getting weaker. After one particularly powerful wave, I looked at my brother and yelled, "We're going to DIE out here!". Larry yelled, "A man has to think of himself!".

Our only chance to make it to shore was to let John go. We did. I glimpsed him floating away underwater. That was the most heart tearing, sad and anguished moment of my life all wrapped up into one desperate attempt to survive with my principles intact.

We began swimming to shore with the waves still sending us down a couple of seconds after surfacing. The salt water mixing with my breathing felt like fire burning my throat trachea. The people on shore didn't get closer. I lost sight of Larry. I was yelling "Praise the Lord" even as I ran out of energy in those brief moments on the surface.

Larry, much stronger than me and an agnostic, was concentrating on getting back to shore by cursing the ocean, the waves , the current and whatever else he could think of to keep himself "mad enough" to keep fighting for his life (I learned this from him later as I could not hear him in the tumult at the time).

About 15 minutes into this ordeal, I lost all my energy. I couldn't speak and I couldn't swim. I would send the commands to my arms and legs and they just WOULD NOT MOVE! I was in very good shape at that time of my life and had no muscle cramps or anything like that. I sank into the depths.

I made myself a promise that, even though I was sure to drown, I would absolutely refuse to breathe until my autonomic response kicked in after losing consciousness; I wasn't going to DO that burning throat thing any longer (later on my doctor said that saved my life but I'm not so sure). I began "breathing" by pushing the air in my mouth into my lungs and back. I thought of my wife and kids and asked God to take care of them.

I was totally convinced I was a goner. For some reason, I stopped feeling that urgency to breathe. Perhaps it was something like the nitrogen narcosis that divers get but that only happens at depth with scuba gear. I think the Guy upstairs gave me a break here (You know, that "sky God" so many people these days don't believe in).   

I became quite relaxed, still unable to move and my surroundings got darker. I figure I was about 20 feet down when I felt some rocky bottom passing under my right toe. The force of the waves was slight here but my movement with the current was plainly felt. This woke me from my torpor.

I concentrated on my foot and tried with all my might to flex my foot and anchor my toe on the reef surface below. It worked and I cut my toe. This woke me up more. I still, believe it or not, did not need to breathe. I waited for the current to shift direction and slid along the bottom with the top of my right foot. When the current flipped again, I would anchor my toe on the reef. I did this 5 or six times. The only part of me that I tried to move was my right foot and toe. I still did not have the strength or muscle coordination to swim. It was getting shallower (warmer water) and my surroundings lighter.

All of a sudden the water got murkier and the bottom hard to hold because it was sandy instead of rocky and, like a submarine surfacing, my head popped out of the water.

Now a normal person takes a deep breath here, right? Not me. I was in terror of losing my grip on the bottom (it was sandy with no toe holds) so I plunged back under to "hold position" until the current shifted. I had glimpsed my sister yards away and I realized I was on the shore so I weakly and carefully stood up, breathed in deep and vomited my guts out.

I raised my head and stared into my sister's eyes. She looked at me and said, "You tried". John died that day. I ended up fishing Larry out as he was cursing his way in (We lay him on the beach and he was okay after about 20 minutes) and keeping John's teenage kid (he had two of his kids there that day) from drowning by trying to fish his father's body out.

We got the body as it managed to float a ways away from the rip tide and bump up against the far end of the tidal pool reef. We did CPR to no avail; he had a pulse from my pushing on his sternum while my sister (a registered nurse) cleared the air passage and breathed into his lungs but we gave up when the ambulance got there about 20 minutes later; he was a solid blue color (John was very fair and redheaded). Not a good day.

The point of this experience I am relating is that we need to get our priorities straight in this country. WTF are we willing to die for? What are our principles? I know what mine are, who my boss is, and where I'm going when I leave this valley of tears. That guides me in my decision making.

As a pilot I learned that you HAVE TO think about trouble all the time, plan what you will do when or if it comes and PRACTICE it in your brain. Then relax and go on about your life. Otherwise you will learn by hard experience why a coward dies a thousand deaths.

Be true to your principles and you will sleep better at night and be an asset to humanity and God.

My rant is for anyone here that hasn't thought this through. I'm in the moral imperative faith based camp.

More Background:

I had events occur in my life that kept me alive miraculously when I should have gotten killed. I did not pray to avoid getting smacked by a car that ran a red light without lights on at night while my brother Larry was saying "It's not going to get any greener" to me from the back seat of the car while I sat there like a bump on a log for NO REASON WHATSOEVER!

I didn't spend 10 to 15 minutes underwater refusing to breathe and come out of it because I'm superman; it just happened and I wrote about it in detail here some time ago. Sure, I was praising the Lord and thanking Him for "rescuing" me while I was drowning trying to fish my brother in law dentist (who drowned) from the surf but it was my foot moving me along the bottom for those 10 to 15 minutes or so that got me to the beach because I could barely move my arms and had to concentrate just to dig one toe into the rocky bottom. God made me work for that one!

While totaling a car, the seat belt caused my rib cage to rotate approximately 10 degrees or so. I fully expected to die and had no desire whatsoever to stick around as I lay in a field gasping for air.

I did not pray or ask to be miraculously healed but nevertheless, AFTER the doctor at the ER had decided to do an exploratory on me to see how damaged I was inside, everything just POPPED into place X-ray room just before the body cavity/chest X-ray prior to the operation. The doctor cancelled the operation after seeing the x-ray. Apparently nothing was broken. You studied medicine (this comment was originally made to a doctor). How many times have you heard of rib cage rotation along the sternum that just pops back into position? How about the spleen? In violent car crashes it is almost always ruptured.

I lost consciousness gasping for air at the hospital with everything going round and round. When I woke up I was still gasping and being rolled into x-ray when all kinds of bubbling noises came from my chest.

I addressed God in my mind and said, WHAT ARE YOU DOING!!? Something or someone said, also in my mind, I"M FIXING YOU. My reaction was of chagrin. I was convinced I was DONE here and now I had to live in this HELL HOLE some more.

Now you can call that a faith based miraculous healing if you want but if you do I will say that you are fooling yourself. The "power" of your mind in Faith isn't going to have you or anybody else walking on water anytime soon. All this stuff and nonsense about each one of us being a little god and able to do miracles just by tuning in to some zen power or mind focus is simply magical thinking. As to JC's quote about moving mountains, mustard seed and Faith, He was talking about rocket fuel for evangelizing (fishing humans), not habitually violating the laws of physics.

My belief in Christ is EVIDENCE based. RE thinks I fancy myself "privileged" to have these experiences. I consider myself incredibly stubborn; so much so that God decided that I am so dense that He had to show me some evidence before I would believe. He doesn't do that to most people because most people aren't that dense, period.

And no, I'm not going to detail all the weird and wonderful stuff I have witnessed to you because some reader here might think I'm inventing it just to prove some metaphysical bullshit I believe in. Sorry, I'm about as hard nosed about cause and effect as any other scientist out there.

I once put a guy in jail because I refused to back down on my court testimony after witnessing a car he lost control of drive over and kill a street vendor. Despite receiving death threats, I said, fu ck it, it's the right thing to do so I'M GOING TO DO IT. 

Everything I witnessed about God doing His thing here and there was rigorously questioned and fact checked moment by moment by me. I was NOT looking for anything but an excuse to NOT believe there is a supreme being that intercedes in the lives of people on this planet in a personal manner.

But the observed events and facts said otherwise. Sure, I have Faith NOW, but I didn't do anything to earn it. It really IS, as the bible says, a gift.

P.S. Larry, my brother who's idea it was to go to that beach that day in the first place, AND who had the "bright" idea of running the current, which eventually caused the drowing death of John Adair, my brother-in-law, has methodically and self servingly lied about his role in the above tragedy. Larry is a serial liar, an adulterer and a crook. If you have been told a different version of any of the above events by him, where he coincidentally appears to be the big hero and I appear as the wimp, you are being lied to. Larry was the chief architect of the theft of my inheritance after our mother, then our father, died. He and all my siblings who joined with him in a conspiracy to steal my inheritance got away with it temporarily.

 

Posted by: AGelbert
« on: December 28, 2017, 05:13:18 pm »

Lugoff versus Spartanburg, SC living costs are about the same:


Agelbert NOTE: It appears that the Lugoff buyers market is a recent phenomenon because the stats. show Lugoff as slightly more costly for housing than Spartanburg (though they are both SUPER affordable : compared to the USA as a whole).

                 Spartanburg, SC            Lugoff, SC    United States
 Overall                                     86                          84                   100
 Grocery                                 105.2                       99.9                  100
 Health                                     99                          86                    100
 Housing                                     53                          60                   100
 Utilities                                     92                        103                   100
 Transportation                           97                        87                   100
 Miscellaneous                          104                       100                   100

http://www.bestplaces.net/compare-cities/lugoff_sc/spartanburg_sc/costofliving

Posted by: AGelbert
« on: December 28, 2017, 05:07:05 pm »

Agelbert NOTE: This home is 17 years old. However, they added a new roof in 2014. That means that they did not have serious mold or other problems with the structure at that time, or they would have just tried to replace it or sell it then. Provided the roof was done properly (metal is better than asphalt shingle, but either one done properly should last at least 20 years), this home on a half acre is a great deal.  :icon_sunny:

If the roof was not done properly, this home is a problem home. I would have an inspector look over this home from top to bottom with a fine tooth comb. It's worth the money the inspector will charge. Also, the realtor states that this is a "motivated" seller. This can mean the owner wants to move soon due to job issues OR the home is rapidly deteriorating. There can be other reasons for a person being "motivated" (realtor parlance for "they'll consider a lower offer"), but I think the ones I mentioned are generally applicable to manufactured home owners. I looked at it in Google Earth and it does not appear to be manufactured home. Yet, the picture in the Trulia web site looks like that of a manufactured home (It appears to have skirting). You be the judge.  8)

All that said, if you don't mind the sound of a train going by routinely ;D, this looks like a nice family home.

2386 Green Hill Rd
 Lugoff, SC 29078   3 beds
 •2 baths
 •1,440 sqft
 •0.50 acres lot size
 •Single-Family Home
 

For Sale  $46,900  Est. Mortgage $280/mo 

Home Details



Single-Family Home
3 Beds
2 Baths
Built in 2000
23 days on Trulia

0.50 acres lot size
1,440 sqft
$33/sqft
182 views

Description

Investor alert! 3bd/2ba home in Lugoff. New roof 2014. Walk in closet in all bedrooms. Kitchen appliances to remain. Great Investment. Motivated Seller.  ;)
 
https://www.trulia.com/property/5033377792-2386-Green-Hill-Rd-Lugoff-SC-29078

Posted by: AGelbert
« on: December 28, 2017, 01:44:07 pm »

I certainly won't complain about any of the well thought out advice and information that I get here on the Diner.  I value all of the experience, insight, knowledge, and expertise that I get here, and that is why I always come here with big decisions.  I respect everyone's opinion even when I do not agree (contrary to RE's assertion). 

On matter of what I'm going to do about a home...well...I'm currently up in the air with it.  What I do know is that I'm going to be mortgaging something.  I'm going to do that because that will result in a lot more for less to the same amount of money that I'd pay to live in an apartment here.  A decent apartment in my area will run about $900 a month in rent, and that would be the cheapest option that we'd care to live in.  While I'm aware that there are benefits to apartment living, such as low utilities bills and no responsibility on upkeep for appliances, plumbing, electrical, etc etc..., typically only one year lease agreements, and no mortgage.  I'm also aware, having lived in apartments for most of my life, that it also comes with shitty neighbors who make lots of noise and complain about ****, no land for gardening, no storage buildings for tools and such, next to no privacy outside of the dwelling, and a lot of time maintenance staff and admin who give less then two shits about anything other then getting the rent on time.  Even still, I'd be willing to live in an apartment...my wife however is not.  That takes apartment living off of the table for me.  Besides, I'd rather not rent because you pay more to rent then you do to mortgage. 

The only question left for me is what am I going to mortgage?  Currently I'm entertaining all options.  My bank told me I need a 680 for my credit score.  It's currently 650 and slowly rising.  Very slowly.  Those fuckers are a bunch of bastards and the credit score game is a loosing one if you are a consumer.  The rules make no sense unless you are a coked up banker.  I really don't care to play, but I have little choice in the matter. 

I'm game for the manufactured home if I can get one that's not a piece of ****.  Apparently that can be difficult but it's possible as Agelbert has demonstrated.  Currently I'm looking into stick built houses for sale as well as manufactured home options.  The main benefit for me, with a manufactured home, is that I can have one plopped down on my mom's 11 acres.  That is the most appealing option for me as finding a house is going to result in less land in a place that will likely not be as ideal.  120k is the max I'm willing to finance because it's the max I can afford on my current salary.  It's also the max I could afford to hustle to pay given I return to the gig economy.  Which is likely at some point. 

Another important tidbit on this entire discussion ties the thread together.  I went trucking to get us our own home.  I needed the W-2 to mortgage something.  Once I acquire said mortgage I may well decide that working for the man is now a waste of my time and return back to Ancient Earth Landscaping, bamboo, permaculture, and herbal medication  ;D 

Truckin' is likely a temporary strategy for me...although I am paying 4% into a 401k so...I'm keeping all of my options open. 




Good thinking.    Let me rephrase the only question left for you: How can you get the most bang for your decent and durable home buck?  ???

As you have realized, the credit score thing is a perverse game that lenders play. It is a perverse game because they PRETEND that all they care about is your ability to pay. That is a half-truth at best and normally a total lie. All they REALLY care about is whether they can make money off your collateral if they are in a position to foreclose on said collateral.

As I mentioned in the latest PM, lenders are risk averse. If they see the risk is low, they then go to the next step of fun and games. That is the credit rating fun and games they use to do TWO things:
1) Tell you how much principal they will lend you.
2) Tell you what interest rate you must pay according to your "credit" score.

WHY do I say that the above are pervese, fact free fun and games? Because they have access to capital for lending that DOES NOT EXIST in the real world. It is invented out of whole cloth. Lenders are the parasites of the fractional reserve, ex nihilo money creation world. What they are "risking" is ALWAYS MUCH LESS than the assessed value of the property they are lending you money (less than 50% all the way to about 10%) for. But enough of my rant.  ;D

I learned there is a bit of a buyers market near you down in Lugoff for repossessed stick built homes. I don't know a thing about Lugoff, SC, but you probably do. There are probably some excellent deals down there, if you are inclined to live there.  8)

Back to the lenders: P.I.T.I. (Principal Interest Taxes Insurance) for your home monthly payment is the bottom line number that you want to limit to 25% of monthly income, as well as limiting the total home principal to 2.5 times your annual income.

Every day that you are alive on planet Earth is another day that, although some here argue otherwise  ;), you ARE paying P.I.T.I., whether you rent or "own". The idea, as you have realized, is to make do and be able to save a reasonable amount each month.

I'm working on the lender picture. I'll get back to you. You are doing fine. Rome was not built in a day. 
Posted by: AGelbert
« on: December 27, 2017, 05:28:53 pm »

The first video you posted would be what we call a manufactured home up here and they are more and more popular. They usually come as modules of any number necessary in all shapes and sizes. I've built frost walls for 2 of them. My part ended there. The second one is what I think of when I think trailer home or double wide. That one as shown was quite poor thermally but it was an old video and probably built for somewhere warm. One company I like is this one : http://www.canadabuilds.ca
They are pretty cutting edge but pricey. I'll stop this here since LD probably cares not at all about our various views of home construction since this thread was originally about trucking.
Cheers, David B

David,
The only type of home I am are intested in discussing is a singlewide manufactured home. I agree that Canadabuilds makes a good home, but LD does not need that type of super insulation or high price per square foot. The whole idea of going for a manufactured home is to avoid the inflated, and totally unjustified, stick built price per square foot. The videos I posted both show advantages that stick built homes will never have.

My home is a Pine Grove. They make very good, but not pricy, manufactured homes. Here are the details on the construction standards and materials on a 3 bedroom 2 bath that they now make. These same standards are part of my 17 year old home. That said, they don't currently market to South Carolina (Pine Grove makes homes with strong roof load design for snow so LD probably would not want that home anyway). I present this home as an example of real world excellent quality equal to or greater than a stick built, but with a much lower price per square foot. I suggest you adjust your thinking and stop generalizing about manufactured home quality and price.

Pine Grove PA 17963
Phone: (570) 345-8600
Web: www.pinegrovehomes.com
3 Bedroom 2 bath singlewide made by Pine Grove: G16-612 - 16' X 76' - 1,165 SQ. FT.
http://www.pinegrovehomes.com/vault-single-section

Pine Grove Homes is located in Pine Grove, Schuylkill County, Pennsylvania. Our homes are marketed throughout the northeast and mid-Atlantic regions of the United States.

For info on Pine Grove dealers near you and availability and price of the Pine Grove G16-612, fill in this contact info:
http://www.pinegrovehomes.com/contact/

Standard Features for Pine Grove Homes
Interior
⦁   Complete Fabric Drapery Package with 2” Blinds or Sheers
⦁   Vinyl On Gypsum Wall Coverings Throughout
⦁   Residential Ceiling Fixtures in All Bedrooms
⦁   Switched Ceiling Light in All Walk-In Closets
⦁   Chandelier in Each Designated Dining Area
⦁   ½” Finished Drywall Cathedral Ceilings with Stipple Finish
⦁   Residential Wood Molding Profiles
⦁   Solid Oak Window Sills
⦁   25 oz. Textured Carpet Installed with Tack Strip & 5.5# Pad
⦁   No Wax Vinyl Flooring by Congoleum®
⦁   Pre-Hung 6-Panel Interior Doors Installed with 3 Hinges
⦁   Vinyl Clad Shelving in Closets and Pantries
⦁   Foyer Entry with Vinyl Flooring at Front Door

Cabinetry
⦁   KCMA Approved Cabinetry Built by Blue Mountain Cabinet Co.
⦁   Solid Oak Cabinets with ¾” Solid Oak Face Frames
⦁   Cabinet Crown on Overhead Cabinets
⦁   Concealed Cabinet Door Hinges
⦁   Drawer-Over-Door Base Cabinets
⦁   Metal Drawer Guide System
⦁   Designer Coordinated Door and Drawer Pulls
⦁   Adjustable Shelving in Overhead Cabinets
⦁   Shelving in All Base Cabinets

Utilities
⦁   Miller Direct Spark Gas Furnace with Metal Access Door
⦁   In-Floor Perimeter Heat System with Perimeter Diffusers
⦁   Insulated Fiberglass Heat Duct w/ Sealed Crossover Connection
⦁   40 Gallon Electric Water Heater with Drip Pan & Exterior Drain
⦁   PEX Hot & Cold Water Lines and Schedule 40 Drain Lines
⦁   Enclosed Water and Drain Lines
⦁   Plumbing for Washer
⦁   Wire and Vent for Dryer
⦁   Water Shut-Offs at All Fixtures
⦁   100 Amp Electric Service
⦁   Hard-Wired Smoke Alarms with Battery Back-Up
⦁   Copper Wiring Throughout
⦁   Switched Receptacle in Living Room
⦁   GFCI Protected Exterior Receptacle
⦁   GFCI Protected Receptacle(s) in Wet Areas

Kitchen
⦁   33” x 19” x 7” Deep Double Bowl Stainless Steel Sink
⦁   Peerless by Delta® Single Lever Faucet with Sprayer
⦁   Soffit Light Over the Sink (in most models)
⦁   Refrigerator Overhead Cabinets
⦁   Wilson Art® or Formica® Laminate Counter Tops, 25” Deep
⦁   4” Laminate Backsplash on All Counters (Ceramic Optional)
⦁   White 18 Cubic Foot Refrigerator
⦁   White 30” Free Standing Gas Range
⦁   White 30” Vented Range Hood with Light by Broan®

Codes
⦁   HUD Code
⦁   Energy Star Compliance
⦁   Thermal Zone III
⦁   Wind Zone I (Wind Zone II Available as an Option)
⦁   Green Certified (Available as an Option)

Bath
⦁   One-Piece Fiberglass Tub and Shower Units
⦁   36” High Oak Vanity Cabinets with China Sinks
⦁   Peerless by Delta® Single Lever Faucets on all Fixtures
⦁   Wilson Art® or Formica® Laminate Counter Tops
⦁   4” Laminate Backsplash on All Counters (Ceramic Optional)
⦁   Oak Medicine Cabinets and/or Mirror with 24” Strip Light
⦁   Broan® Lighted Exhaust Fan in Each Bath
⦁   1.6 Gallon Round Front Water Saver Commode
⦁   All Bath Fixtures are White

Exterior
⦁   Georgia Pacific® Dutch Lap Vinyl Siding
⦁   3/8” Wood Fiber Sheathing Installed Underneath Siding
⦁   Owens Corning® 3-Tab Fiberglass Roof Shingles
⦁   Eaveguard Ice and Water Shield
⦁   38x82 Residential Size Fiberglass 6-Panel Front Door, No Storm
⦁   38x82 Residential Size Fiberglass 2-Lite Rear Door, No Storm
⦁   Exterior Light at Each Entrance Door
⦁   Vinyl Thermopane “Low E” Single Hung Windows
⦁   12” Raised Panel Shutters on Front Door Side & Right Gable End
⦁   6” Fascia and Soffit
⦁   Ridge Vent

Construction
⦁   All Wall Studs, Trusses, & Floor Joists Installed 16” On-Center
⦁   40# Snow Load Roof Trusses
⦁   7/16” OSB Roof Sheathing
⦁   2x6 Graded Wall Studs
⦁   7’ 6”’ Sidewalls Standard (8’ Sidewalls are Available)
⦁   2x6 Floor Joists (28’ Wide) and 2x8 Floor Joists (32’ Wide)
⦁   2x6 Perimeter Joists
⦁   ¾” Tongue and Groove OSB Floor Decking
⦁   R-19 Fiberglass Wall Insulation
⦁   R-38 Blown-In Cellulose Ceiling Insulation
⦁   Combination of R-19 and R-27 Floor Insulation
⦁   Matewall Sealed with Double Center Seal Gasket
⦁   10” or 12” I-Beam Foundation Frame

Note: Any home receiving a site-built garage (or other structure) MUST meet all egress requirements for exterior doors. A third exit door may need to be installed in the home in order for it to be in full compliance. See below for more details.

All representations and descriptions of the Pine Grove product are believed to be accurate at the time of publication. Due to continual product improvement and changes in design, we cannot guarantee exact duplication of every product shown herein. Model availability and specifications may change without notice. Your Retailer, an independent contractor who is not an agent of Pleasant Valley Homes, is the party responsible for your purchase contract and any additions, deletions, alterations, or attachments made to or in your home.

Garage Notice:

Pine Grove manufactured homes are built to the standards as established by the manufactured housing HUD building code. Please note that any home that will have a site-built garage added to it will need to have three exterior doors in order to meet egress requirements as established by HUD (one which provides access to the garage and two which provide immediate access to the outside of the home). There are rules in place governing where these doors can be located within the homes and all designs will be subject to final approval from the engineering department to ensure that the home will be in full compliance following the addition of the site-built garage.

General:

All representations and descriptions of the Pine Grove Product are believed to be accurate at the time of publication. Due to continual product improvement and changes in design, we cannot guarantee exact duplication of every product shown herein. Model availability and specifications may change without notice. Your Retailer, an independent contractor, who is not an agent of Pine Grove Homes, is the party responsible for your purchase contract and any additions, deletions, alterations or attachments made to or in your home.
http://www.pinegrovehomes.com/standard-features/

David, what you think of in any house is what you should think of in a manufactured home. There is no valid assumption about the level of insulation or lack of that merits your generalizations about double wides and so on. The following infographics are what you should be referencing when you think of manufactured homes in the USA. Please stop generalizing.

Manufactured Homes Quick Facts 1 of 2

Manufactured Homes Quick Facts 2 of 2




Posted by: AGelbert
« on: December 27, 2017, 03:02:50 pm »


Posted by: AGelbert
« on: December 26, 2017, 10:11:28 pm »

Agelbert NOTE: The video is a bit dated but the info is still valuable. Learn why manufactured homes are routinely a lot tighter than stick built homes. 8)

How It's Made Explores the Merits of a Factory-built home 


FleetwoodHomes Inc 

Published on Jan 2, 2013


http://fleetwoodhomes.com

Manufactured Homes
Posted by: AGelbert
« on: December 26, 2017, 08:19:38 pm »

Not Your Grandfather's Trailer


Not Your Grandfather's Trailer

Ray Doughty

Published on Jan 22, 2016

Posted by: AGelbert
« on: December 16, 2017, 10:31:31 pm »

My Pine Grove home is 17 years old and still going strong!
Posted by: AGelbert
« on: August 03, 2017, 07:51:37 pm »

Agelbert NOTE: Azozeo lives in Arizona.

I merely stated my opinion that you can't live with predators on your property.

RE


I do....


There's a coon tail diamond back rattler that sets up shop by the water dish outside
around sunset waiting for field mice to come out after sunset. His name is Dillinger....

Kathy had to dispose of a tarantula last week. Bottled him up in a mason jar, took him up to the end of the street & set him free in the desert. Damn thing walked back down the street & was on the garage door the next night.

I picked up a baby scorpion of the rug in my room & gave him the tidy bowl challenge.

RE, It comes with the territory.

I'm surprised you don't get bears or moose wandering into town.
There all a bunch of moochs.

One of my friends showed me a vid he took of a whole herd of elk in his back yard eating the bread scraps set out for the birds.

Papa elk was a 12 pointer & he had six bitches with him. mmm mm mmmmmmm .....


Fascinating.  I read somewhere that some people have trained Tarantulas to eat out of their hand. It seems they are smarter than they look.  ;D  I'll skip that experience, thank you very much.

As to what critters out there will eat, well, just about anything edible. I recently saw pictures (not photoshopped) of a deer with a strange looking "twig "in it's mouth. It was a human rib, as the human skeletal remains on the ground makes clear. The caption was "I didn't kill him. Please do not shoot".     

So it seems that herbivores will eat bones and meat, which probably does not do them any good at all. So if we get an epidemic of mad deer disease, you will know why.  :P

Photo without the gag caption:

Its attention caught, a deer found eating a human corpse looks up, a rib dangling from its mouth.
Photograph courtesy Lauren A. Meckel/Academia

SNIPPET:

By Delaney Chambers

PUBLISHED May 7, 2017


In an unprecedented finding, researchers spotted a deer chewing on a human rib during a study aimed at examining how human remains decompose in the wild.


Scavengers take advantage of opportunities to eat, and carcasses left in the wild often decay quickly because animals can make quick work of the remains–even human remains.

Known as “body farms,” some research facilities study how human remains decompose in the open air, including which animals interact with the corpse.

Foxes, turkey vultures, raccoons, and other scavengers are commonly seen helping themselves to decomposing bodies. Researchers at the Forensic Anthropology Research Facility in San Marcos, Texas, set up a camera to see whether any other scavengers would stop by–and they were not disappointed.

Body Farm: It's a field filled with rotting corpses  :P. But no one is burying these bodies just yet.

In a study published this week in the Journal of Forensic Sciences, researchers highlighted their finding: Ungulates, too, will partake in human flesh, if it’s available.

White-tailed deer are considered herbivores and subsist on a diet of readily available plants, including twigs, fruits, nuts, alfalfa, and the occasional fungi. (Read more about the white-tailed deer.)

This is the first time scientists have observed deer eating human flesh, though they have been known to turn carnivorous in the past, eating fish, dead rabbits, and even live birds.

Deer may pursue flesh because they lack minerals like phosphorous, salt, and calcium, especially in the winter months when plant life is scarce.

Full article with more mouth watering pictures:  


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/05/deer-eating-human-forensics-decomposition/
Posted by: AGelbert
« on: August 03, 2017, 02:02:01 pm »

Agelbert NOTE: RE lives in Alaska. He is writing to Palloy, who lives in a tropical jungle (populated by, among many different species, some interesting small mammal eating pythons). :o  :P

I went outside to smoke a Cancerette, and has been the case for the last few months on many days, it was raining.  Not hard rain, just a steady drizzle.

We had a summer here a few years ago like this, but the recent ones have been much more dry and sunny.  Generally speaking, such a summer is a good thing here, because the dry summers result in lots of Wildfires.  Wet summers reduce this danger.   Fire danger signs at all the parks now are at the BOTTOM level of LOW.  Nothing is likely to burn here at the moment, you would have to pour a **** load of kero on some piece of wood to get that one started.

As long as you have some shelter, a steady drizzle is not a real big issue.  On my porch, I have the shelter of the porch above me.  When in SaVANnah, I have the Big Brolly right now as well as an Awning for the Side door, although I have not tested that one out yet.  I also am working on the Geodesic Gazebo as a further addition.  Driving rain with a lot of wind attached to it is a bigger problem of course, but we don't get much of that here.  For that **** you basically gotta just hole up in the Van unless you do up a full blown dome, which I probably will not do.

Overall, having steady rainfall in your neighborhood is a GOOD thing, although it can be annoying as far as going out and enjoying nature is concerned.  The water feeds the crops and keeps the aquifer filled.  Too much of it and too much humidity as is the case in many Tropical Rainforest locations can of course be a problem also.  You get problems with Mold of course with too much dampness around all the time.  For me also, I just can't stand being Sweaty all the time, which you always are when it is hot & humid.  I prefer a climate with about a 60-70F average temp and about 20% humidity.  The climate here in the Matanuska-Susitna River Valley hits this target most of the time through the summer, although this one has been rainier than usual.

I just can't grasp why some people would choose to live in HOT & HUMID climates like the Tropical Rainforest, with lots of PYTHONS slinking about who want to make a meal out of your Kitty,  This makes no CFS to me. ???   

RE


I feel the same way. Having lived several years in the tropics, I got tired of feeling like a wet sponge most of the time. That's why I live in Vermont. The routine relative humidity here is between 40 and 60% in the summer (much less in the winter). That is comfortable climate to me.   

Posted by: AGelbert
« on: July 04, 2017, 02:29:14 pm »

Quote
OK, I'll pick up a CO monitor to get some numbers on this.  I am quite sure it is not a problem though, since Van Dweller is still alive after 50 years living this way.

RE

 

Just remember that in all those examples of CO concentration I quoted, the oxygen concentration was around normal atmosphere (about 21 to 23% if you aren't next to a refinery or in a traffic jam, of course  ;D).  So, even with 210,000 PPM of Oxygen, a mere 1,600 PPM of of CO from a kitchen stove can waste you in about an hour.
Posted by: AGelbert
« on: July 03, 2017, 09:30:39 pm »

On awakening this morning, SaVannah was still at a comfortable 61F with exterior temps around 51.  One kero lantern running works to put out enough heat overnight to make a 9F gradient, adding in of course your body heat escaping from the sleeping bag.  I will install more permanent Hooks for lanterns and run up to four of them on cold nights.  This should cover me down into the 30sF, possibly 20s.  Colder than that, I go to the Catalytic Kero Heater. 

Maybe I missed this, but are you accounting for CO buildup?

I read in an earlier installment about the fan system you hooked up, but that was for cooling. Just wondering about ventilation with all those kero appliences.
Let's not do The Big Sleep too early.

The Van leaks too much air for CO to build up, especially running just one kero lamp.  CO only forms if there isn't enough O2 around for the combustion to be complete and form CO2.  Maybe if I was running all 4 it might be an issue, but I doubt it.  The kero catalytic heater is indoor safe and has a CO detector and automatic shut-off.  If that doesn't shut itself down, then 4 kero lamps definitely won't be producing CO in any great magnitude.  The heater puts out 8000 BTU.  A kero lamp?  Maybe 500 BTU.

I may buy a separate CO detector though just to get some numbers on this.

RE

I think that would be prudent. Your assumption that high oxygen availability guarantees complete combustion in a kerosene lamp is erroneous. I won't argue with you about how much oxygen is available. I'm sure you are okay in that regard.

Of course there is a gradient involved in the percentage of combustion products when the oxygen supply varies.

Of course a van is not as tight as a building, so CO poisoning is less likely. BUT you DO turn on the engine every now and then when it is parked  and a MASSIVE amount of CO comes out of that tail pipe and hangs around the van.

I had no tail pipe in my efficiency apartment and plenty of oxygen but I still almost bought the farm. My apartment was, of course, well insulated, unlike your van, which compounded my problem and lessens yours, but  I didn't have a tail pipe a few feet away.

So if you think that lamp of yours isn't putting out CO, talk to me again when you have bought the monitor.

Quote
500 ppm Often produced in garage when a cold car is started in an open garage and warmed-up for 2 minutes. (Greiner, unpublished, 1997).

800 ppm Dizziness, nausea and convulsions within 45 minutes. Unconsciousness within 2 hours. Death within 2-3 hours. Maximum air-free concentration from gas kitchen ranges (ANSI).

1600 ppm Headache, dizziness and nausea within 20 minutes. Death within 1 hour. Smoldering wood fires, malfunctioning furnaces, water heaters, and kitchen ranges typically produce concentrations exceeding 1,600 ppm.

3200 ppm Concentration inside charcoal grill (Greiner, single example). Headache, dizziness and nausea within 5-20 minutes. Quickly impaired thinking. Death within 30 minutes.

6400 ppm Headache, dizziness and nausea within 1-2 minutes. Thinking impaired before response possible. Death within 10-15 minutes.

12,800 ppm Death within 1-3 minutes.



35,000 ppm
Measured tailpipe exhaust concentration from warm carbureted gasoline engines without catalytic converters.
(Greiner, unpublished field study, January 1997)

Many years ago I used kerosene lamps under banana plants to get them to flower quicker. It's a long story but there was PLENTY of oxygen in my back yard and i STILL was getting products of incomplete combustion.  Kerosene is called that because there are several different groups of long chained hydrocarbons in the mix. Some, as you know, burn faster than others...

Quote
Regardless of crude oil source or processing history, kerosene's major components are branched and straight chain alkanes and naphthenes (cycloalkanes), which normally account for at least 70% by volume. Aromatic hydrocarbons in this boiling range, such as alkylbenzenes (single ring) and alkylnaphthalenes (double ring), do not normally exceed 25% by volume of kerosene streams. Olefins are usually not present at more than 5% by volume.[10]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerosene

In my yard I was goosing my plants with ethylene, the ripening hormone, but I knew there was some CO, CO2 and H2O coming out of that kerosene witches brew.
Posted by: AGelbert
« on: July 03, 2017, 02:41:41 pm »

OK! Day 2 of the July 4th Weekend Stealth Van Testing now done!   

I got up early (for me) this morning around 9AM with quite a few projects to accomplish.  Although a good deal more organized than when I took off on the Adventure, SaVannah was still not up to snuff to have such a small space well enough organized to move around.  This became clear early in the morning when I first woke up and because of all the clutter from the campsite I threw back into her for the night, I couldn't move around easily to get myself dressed for the day.  So on the list for more stuff to buy went a couple of more organizing containers/plastic drawers.

By early morning also it was pretty cold, around 50F (10C).  While I was toasty warm in my sleeping bag, once out of it and trying to get dressed (which takes me quite a while), it was rather chilly. I had to fire up the engine and get the Van heating system going, running the engine for around 20 minutes.  So tonight I am implementing the first of my several levels of Heating Plans.  I am utilizing a kerosene lamp as a heater overnight.  This is straight out of the Van Dweller Handbook.


When I fired up the lamp around 8PM, temps were still a comfortable 63F both inside and outside SaVannah.  As the night approached around 11PM, outside temps had dropped to around 55F, while the interior of SaVannah was up to 65F, a full 10F of gradient there on one kero lamp!  I think 1 lamp runnig overnight will work at these temps.  Going down to 40F, I might have to run 2 or 3 lamps.  Because the volume of the space is so small, you get a lot of bang for your buck on heating this way.  Kero lamps burn miniscule amounts of kero, a Liter will last at least a week.  I'll report tomorrow on where the temps were at when I wake up.  For still colder temps, I can run more of these lanterns.  2 more should take me down to close to freezing I think.  After that, it may be necessary to fire up the Catalytic Kero Heater which pops out a whopping 8000 BTUs.  That should warm up the cabin in minutes, I doubt I would have to run it continuously unless outside temps were in the Slope territory of -30F and below, and I NEVER expect to be in that situation.

The most important additional prep to buy today was a NEW LAPTOP!    The one I am currently using is just beat to ****, I am lucky I even got the mother fucker to work!  That's why I bought the new Dell All-in-One as my primary computer at home in the digs.  So all of this essential **** required a drive back to "civilization" at Walmart, and since my digs are on the way there I cheated and made a stop off there in mid afternoon. ;D  That's when I wrote my fairly long post on the HOA topic.

[smg id=3920 type=preview align=center caption="Boondocks New Laptop"]

My intention was to get the new laptop set up tonight at the campsite, but I decided against that and will wait until the trip is finished on the 4th and do it at home.  The batt probably needs a good charge, and it is steadily raining which while I was protected by the Big Brolly does not give me much room to move around. Besides, setting up a new compute and downloading all your favorite software takes hours, and I would have to do that over my Wireless 4G connection and burn up the limited bandwidth.   So tonight I am suffering again on the old laptop with its keyboard idiosyncracies which makes keyboarding out this post twice as long as it should take.  The new laptop should be ready for the next Adventure down to the Kenai Peninsula for another Property Search as well as shooting pics of the Dip Netting melee. lol.

While all this stuff might seem simple to you healthy folks out there, for me it is thoroughly exhausting.  Every trip of 50 feet between me and SaVannah makes my legs ache, and I have to sit down and rest them all the time.  Simple tasks like disposing of packaging materials requires a new round trip to SaVannah, to be dropped into another garbage bag and dropped into a dumpster for itd finsl trip to the Land of Away.  It's also getting ever more difficult yo get into and out of her to access everything.  Nevertheless, I soldier onward.   ::)

RE

On awakening this morning, SaVannah was still at a comfortable 61F with exterior temps around 51.  One kero lantern running works to put out enough heat overnight to make a 9F gradient, adding in of course your body heat escaping from the sleeping bag.  I will install more permanent Hooks for lanterns and run up to four of them on cold nights.  This should cover me down into the 30sF, possibly 20s.  Colder than that, I go to the Catalytic Kero Heater.

Maybe I missed this, but are you accounting for CO buildup?

I read in an earlier installment about the fan system you hooked up, but that was for cooling. Just wondering about ventilation with all those kero appliences.
Let's not do The Big Sleep too early.


 



About 20 years ago, when I still smoked, I participated in a smoking study at UVM. They would measure the amount of carbon monoxide in my lungs at intervals. When I would walk in, they would check the level before starting the test. Normally it was next to zip. But one day it was off the charts. I was also feeling rather groggy that day after sleeping rather heavily the night before.

The researcher's eye brows went up and he asked me if I had been chain smoking just before arriving. I  hadn't. But I had woken up really groggy with a bit of a scare. I was renting a tiny efficiency apartment in Burlington at the time and my wife was not with me there yet. I had lit one of those incense candles that are in large square glass containers and placed it on the floor. When I awoke in the morning, the rug was partially scorched. Luckily, the place had not caught fire, because the CO (not just the CO2 - you ALWAYS get some incomplete combustion when burning  hydrocarbons) from that candle had knocked me out just enough to keep me asleep but not quite enough to kill me, unless there was a fire.

I never lit one of those incense candles again.  :-[ We live, and we learn.


Posted by: AGelbert
« on: May 22, 2017, 08:23:20 pm »


Your vocabulary lends itself to some fascinating interpretations of what "IS" is. THAT is why any debate with you ends up in a hair splitting exercise. What you DO with words is, as RE has pointed out repeatedly, move the definition goal posts around so that you can say, uh, NO "I didn't say that" or "No, this thread has no relevance to eXternalism", etc.

Instead of just accusing me of moving the goalposts, show me where I have.


Quote
FOLLOWED by your apparent willingness to discuss an issue, that by your own words, is rather fruitless to discuss (i.e. the interaction). ::)

It is not fruitless to discuss it, and in fact I welcome discussion of it, since I am pretty sure that the more people think about it, the more people will realize that the interaction problem has no solution, and so take a look at the alternative -- idealism. Of course they might also fall into the error of materialism, in which case I would welcome discussion of the hard problem of consciousness, which they can't solve.

Quote
Here's the deal, Ka. EVERYTHING about your outlook on what you consider WHATEVER is impossible to argue against BECAUSE you DO NOT REALLY BELIEVE (yeah - I know you'll claim that about you is incorrect as well) WE are talking to each other here.

Yup, incorrect. See below.

Quote
Sure, you can come up with all sorts of erudite labels with "justification" for your claim that you believe we do have sensory apparatus and that you do actually engage in debate with other humans and recognize that we talk to each other, but it is NOT SO, according to your concept of reality. 

My concept of reality is that there is nothingness (no-thingness) AND there is thingness, and each depends on the other, making them a unity. So it does not follow from my concept of reality that there is no sensory apparatus, or other humans, or biosphere.


Quote
This then taints absolutely every subject on the issue (i.e. cause and effect related) about integrating, analyzing and taking appropriate action on, INFORMATION about the OUTSIDE world that our sensory apparatus MUST have for us to remain as viable homeostatic biological entities.  [/size]

There is just NO WAY for you to look at your belief system and seriously consider the possibility that you are a space cadet living in a totally erroneous private world. The biosphere is NOT accessible through a meditation chamber, and never will be, IMHO. You have provided zero evidence that it is.

?? What does meditation have to do with the existence of anything?

Quote
Furthermore, you may even claim that "looking for evidence" is evidence ;) of an incorrect approach to "perceiving" the biosphere or anything else.  :laugh:

The only (non)-thing for which one cannot look for evidence is no-thingness. The biosphere is a thing, so there is no problem perceiving it, or studying it scientifically.

Quote
It's kind of like saying that jumping out of a window of a multistory building is not dangerous; it's the concrete that kills you. And even that was a mere perception of smacking the concrete.

Ah, now here there is something to say. Yes, smacking the concrete is just perceptions, very painful ones, resulting in death, which is to say the scrunched up body is no longer able to perceive physical reality (its sensory apparatus has been destroyed). After which (I think) one perceives non-physical reality, but I can't prove that. In any case, physical reality continues to exist as long as there are people or bacteria perceiving it. The problem I suspect you have with this is the word "just" as in "just perceptions". My task, if we are to actually debate this, is to show that saying that physical reality is "just perceptions" does not detract an iota from science, or how we should engage with physical reality, for example, it remains the case that jumping out of high windows results in death.

Quote
When I question your ability to perceive without accepting the fact that perceiving IS a sensory EVENT that INCLUDES integrating outside information, you DANCE by saying the, uh, "interaction is not explained".

As I said, I accept that perceiving is a sensory event, and have no idea why you think I would think otherwise. And it does integrate outside information, that is, information that was outside my ego consciousness, and moves inside it. However, I would also say that "inside" and "outside" are spatial metaphors, and that space has no independent existence, that we create space, time, and mass in the act of perceiving. And this, of course, is where discussion gets tricky, and calls for "hair-splitting", though I would call it precision. The moon really exists, but only exists located in spacetime when it is looked at.

Quote
I'll tell you what. When you agree that it is possible that you are a space cadet and do not have a clue of what you speak, then I will admit that SAME possibility is present in my worldview as well. But until you, a separate and distinct entity from me, are actually willing to GO THERE, you are fibbin' when you claim you ARE willing to "go there" on the issue of eXternalism.

I agree that it is possible that I am wrong. There is no certainty in metaphysics. All one can do is argue over what is most plausible. But then I have never claimed otherwise, so I really don't understand this talk about being unwilling to "go there". After all, until I was 37 I was just as much an externalist as you are now. So I've been there.

Quote
I challenge your claim that eXternalism is not related to, or relevant to, this thread. It is.

Of course it is highly relevant to this thread, which is why I made my first post in this thread attacking externalism. However, it is not relevant to the debate I had with RE over the usage of 'ad hominem', which is all I claimed.


Quote
People who BELIEVE that there is ZERO meaning in anything and everything they "do" OFTEN end up committing suicide (e.g. Buddhists). THIS SENSELESS ACT is born of nihilism. ANYONE that teaches others that there is NOTHING because there is NO THING is nurturing a potential nihilist who may end up committing suicide.

Then I'm off the hook, because I definitely believe there are things, such as you, me, and the biosphere, and that real people are doing real harm to it. What I do not believe is that there are any mindless things existing on their own.


Quote
DON'T hair split with me about the importance of MEANING and PURPOSE in human lives. Your worldview EXCLUDES BOTH MEANING AND PURPOSE. But of, course, you will claim that you never said any of that or represent any of that. Well, I think you do. And I think you should take responsibility for telling people there is NOTHING to FEAR out there because there is NO THING, or even an "out there".

I am afraid of disease, poisonous critters, of losing my savings to some bankster, etc. etc., since I consider viruses, critters, and banksters to all be real. I also think that MEANING and PURPOSE are names of God, and that things exist to express that Meaning and fulfill divine Purpose.

You say I am moving goalposts. Show me where I have. Show me where I have ever said or implied that "nothing is real" or anything like that. Some Buddhists say that, but I am not one of them.


Well, how can I show you that you have said it?  The only way, I suppose, which I am sure you will take issue with, is the "spatial metaphors" term and the alleged conditional "existence" of the moon (or any thing -atoms, molecules, people, etc.- else, for that matter).

Ka said (smileys are sins of Agelbert - Ka is innocent!):
Quote
I would also say that "inside" and "outside" are spatial metaphors, and that space has no independent existence, that we create space, time, and mass in the act of perceiving. And this, of course, is where discussion gets tricky  ;), and calls for "hair-splitting"  ;D, though I would call it precision. The moon really exists, but only exists located in spacetime when it is looked at.
(emphasis mine  )

I don't like to use labels, but aren't you a type of monist?
Quote

Monism is the view that attributes oneness or singleness (Greek: μόνος) to a concept (e.g., existence). Substance monism is the philosophical view that a variety of existing things can be explained in terms of a single reality or substance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monism
(emphasis mine  ;D)

The issue of names for God is not something I ever associated MEANING and PURPOSE with. I agree that God has a lot to do with that in our lives, but I wasn't talking about God; I was talking about humans. You know, like Maslow's hierarchy and things like that. When you do that sort of subject classification rearrangement, it appears to me that you just moved a goal post. Can we stick to human meaning and purpose for a while? You are the scholar, but I know a thing or two about language as well. The word "vocation" is one I would associate with God as linked to meaning and purpose in our lives simply because I believe that we all have a mission. But that's at a level of mind far beyond avoiding pain, breathing, getting enough to eat, maintaining homeostasis, etc.

Quote
vo·ca·tion noun: vocation; plural noun: vocations

late Middle English: from Old French, or from Latin vocatio(n-), from vocare ‘to call.’

a strong feeling of suitability for a particular career or occupation.
"not all of us have a vocation to be nurses or doctors"

synonyms: calling, life's work, mission, purpose, function; More
profession, occupation, career, job, employment, trade, craft, business, line, line of work, métier

"forestry is my vocation"

•a person's employment or main occupation, especially regarded as particularly worthy and requiring great dedication.

Back to the window jump to concrete splat experience, to you, the concrete is only "there" because the jumper thought it would be there PRIOR to jumping out of the window. If, for example, the jumper firmly THOUGHT that a 12 ft deep swimming pool was down there prior to jumping, he would just splash into the pool and swim to the edge unharmed.

This "ability" you believe we conscious entiti(es  ;)) possess to sort of create our physical universe on the fly as a function of perception (which vanishes from existence just as quickly with our Trump like "attention" to perception) is a bit difficult to accept from the point of view of thermodynamics, if nothing else is at issue (although there certainly ARE a lot of other controversial considerations to be explained).

Once I had appendicitis. I didn't know I had it. I just knew I had an upset stomach after eating at around 6:00 PM, which turned into a stomach ache that would not go away, but was not localized on my right side near the appendix. I went to the ER at around 9:00 PM. The doctor diagnosed my ache as gastritis and prescribed some shots I could give myself in the thigh (two shots).

Now why did he make that mistake? BECAUSE of the power of suggestion of my mind (at least partly - the doctor that operated on me later on told me it's real hard to diagnose appendicitis when the pain isn't localized, and even then they can only confirm SOMETHING is wrong in one or more of your organs because of the high white blood cell count).

You see, when I arrived at the ER with that gut pain, the young doctor, after examining a 24 year old healthy male with a stomach ache, gave me a shot of something. The pain in my stomach vanished like it had never been there. This convinced the  doctor that his gastritis initial diagnosis was correct, so no blood tests were ordered and I was sent home.

I got up at midnight with renewed pain in my stomach. I gave myself the shot. Within an hour it was worse. I gave myself the second shot. By two AM, I am pounding on the headboard to avoid dealing with the severe stomach pain and cramping.

WHY? Because I was poor, newly married, had been fired from an air taxi for organizing a union, was out of a job, and living in my parent's house. I DID NOT WANT to rack up some hospital expenses, comprende, amigo?

BUT, I had GREAT FAITH in doctors. But that "faith" didn't last too long as the organs did a duty dance in there. I finally went back to the hospital at around 4:00 AM and, within another 12 hours, and a LOT of pain, I had my appendix, which had ruptured, making it life threatening peritonitis, removed.

The doctor that operated on me later explained that some people, like me, never get a pain in their SIDE that helps doctors diagnose appendicitis. Gastritis is more common so that's the way young doctors frequently go when faced with patients like me. The shots for gastritis actually exacerbate the swelling of the infected appendix.  :P

As the appendix swells, the other organs begin to swell as a defense mechanism. After the appendix ruptures, the other organs quickly sense this and try to limit the damage from toxins that will certainly damage them (and kill you) from septic conditions.

These other organs isolate the appendix as best they can by expanding through inflammation. It works for a while. THAT is when the pain becomes localized on your side. But if you are not operated on within a certain time period, the toxins and bacteria from the ruptured appendix attack the walls of the organs pushing against the appendix and THEY get severely infected too. Then the patient dies.

So, you can see why I have some issues with believing that my (allegedly instant matter creating thought processes) had BEANS to do with anything but making a situation WORSE BECAUSE of the power of my mind to incorrectly, but due to my faith in doctors, believe the doctor who diagnosed me with gastritis and gave me a shot had fixed everything.

From the "perception is creation of cause and effect on the fly" view you claim is logical and reasonable, it makes no sense whatsoever. Ka, I was NOT in the conscious sensory loop. Everything that happened in my appendix and surrounding organs was an involuntary response that I knew nothing about until the doctor explained it to me AFTER THE FACT. It all happened, regardless of what I THOUGHT and the events were totally adverse to my perceived economic needs at the time.

You believe our minds are a creative force, with few limits. I am convinced that our bodies and minds are, in the scientific sense of the word, "irritable". That is a term, in this case, NOT related to "being in a bad mood or feeling bothered", as it is commonly used in the vernacular. I am referring to the ability to sense defined as "irritability". I learned that term in a mainframe computer class. The Sperry Univac missile tracker converted to an air traffic tracker was "irritable" because it had sensory response connections (IO - input output) from radar sites through PAMS (peripheral adapter modules).

My organs operate on a level that my thought processes rarely sense, yet they DO have a purpose and a meaning to their primitive but absolutely vital functions within me. I cannot accept your claim that, somehow,  these irritability based cause and effect processes do not exist when I do not have them in my perception.

We have argued this stuff before. You have said, if I remember correctly, that my constructed universe is real for me so, even if I "created" all that cause and effect AFTER it happened, that's okay too because thought is not "limited" by time.

I disagree. And it is you that needs to do a bit of convincing here that you aren't making a circular argument. Think about it, Ka. Nobody can pin you down to flawed logic because your cause and effect creative horizons aren't even limited by time!

Now IF you accept that ignorance of a form of cause and effect such as my appendicitis/peritonitis on my part is inexplicable from the monist point of view, I would consider that a rational position. But that is "rational" from your point of view, ONLY if our creative modus operandi is time limited. But that would mean that reality exists independent of thought perceptions. And that is why I believe the "unlimited time for creative tought cause and effect" thing is sine qua non to your belief system.  :(

Now, if you say you agree that our instant creative processes ARE time limited, as you imply when you say the moon no longer exists right after you stop thinking about the moon, then you should NOT keep denying, what I believe is a corollary, i.e. that, if I am in a space ship, I won't hit the moon, even if I'm flying at it in ignorance, because I don't THINK it's there. :P  Sorry Ka, it's THERE, whether I am thinking about it or not.

My appendix ruptured when it was the very last thing I wanted or was thinking about because the poison was THERE.

Posted by: AGelbert
« on: May 22, 2017, 08:12:46 pm »

RE and I are on different sides of the universe in regard to SPIRITUAL cause and effect

I'll dispute that conclusion.

We're in entirely DIFFERENT Universes!


RE


Yup.   


So,
It appears that Ka has attempted to dance around the FACT that it offends him for anyone to NOT question the validity of externalism.  ;D

?? In this thread there has been no debate concerning the validity of externalism. I did state my position on the matter in my first post in this thread, but the only thing objected to in that post was my use of the term "ad hominem". Since then, that is all that RE and I have been debating. So I don't understand how you get to "Ka has attempted to dance around the FACT that it offends him for anyone to NOT question the validity of externalism."


Quote
RE is correct  :o  ;D that questioning Externalism to the point of saying it is totally invalid, useless, counterproductive and possibly destructive to human society (paraphrased  ;)) is certainly NOT Ad Hom to Ka,

I agree. It would not be an ad hom. Only he hasn't said anything of that nature in this thread.


Quote
... just because Ka thinks our plebian perception of reality is some sort of illusion that we cause and effect types are being fooled into believing.

Our perception is not an illusion. It is an inference we make concerning the nature of what we perceive that I consider to be false, namely that what we perceive exists on its own in the way we perceive it. Just clarifying.


[/size]
Quote
RE gets it about the connection between reality and what is external to us and what ain't.

Then how does he (or you) solve the interaction problem?

Quote
Ka not only doesn't get it, he is pissed at anyone who says Ka doesn't get it.

I'm just waiting to hear of a solution to the interaction problem (not really, since I don't think there is a solution). Anyway, I don't see how that counts as being "pissed" or not "getting it".


Quote
A few years ago I went through excruciating detail explaining the human sensory apparatus. The very ability of Ka to question our assumed cause and effect "externalism" is impossible without that sensory apparatus.

I don't ever recall saying that we don't have a sensory apparatus. Whether it does what you think it does, versus what I think it does, is what we debated. And the answer to that cannot be provided by the sensory apparatus alone, which just gets perceptions. It is the concepts we add to those perceptions that are in dispute.

Quote
But Ka, even though he is a man I respect immensely, just don't wanna go there.

Well, here I am, going there.


Ka,
Your vocabulary lends itself to some fascinating interpretations of what "IS" is. THAT is why any debate with you ends up in a hair splitting exercise. What you DO with words is, as RE has pointed out repeatedly, move the definition goal posts around so that you can say, uh, NO "I didn't say that" or "No, this thread has no relevance to eXternalism", etc. FOLLOWED by your apparent willingness to discuss an issue, that by your own words, is rather fruitless to discuss (i.e. the interaction).  ::)

Here's the deal, Ka. EVERYTHING about your outlook on what you consider WHATEVER is impossible to argue against BECAUSE you DO NOT REALLY BELIEVE (yeah - I know you'll claim that about you is incorrect as well) WE are talking to each other here.

Sure, you can come up with all sorts of erudite labels with "justification" for your claim that you believe we do have sensory apparatus and that you do actually engage in debate with other humans and recognize that we talk to each other, but it is NOT SO, according to your concept of reality.   

This then taints absolutely every subject on the issue (i.e. cause and effect related) about integrating, analyzing and taking appropriate action on, INFORMATION about the OUTSIDE world that our sensory apparatus MUST have for us to remain as viable homeostatic biological entities. 

There is just NO WAY for you to look at your belief system and seriously consider the possibility that you are a space cadet living in a totally erroneous private world. The biosphere is NOT accessible through a meditation chamber, and never will be, IMHO. You have provided zero evidence that it is.

Furthermore, you may even claim that "looking for evidence" is evidence ;) of an incorrect approach to "perceiving" the biosphere or anything else.  :laugh:  It's kind of like saying that jumping out of a window of a multistory building is not dangerous; it's the concrete that kills you. And even that was a mere perception of smacking the concrete.

When I question your ability to perceive without accepting the fact that perceiving IS a sensory EVENT that INCLUDES integrating outside information, you DANCE by saying the, uh, "interaction is not explained".

I'll tell you what. When you agree that it is possible that you are a space cadet and do not have a clue of what you speak, then I will admit that SAME possibility is present in my worldview as well. But until you, a separate and distinct entity from me, are actually willing to GO THERE, you are fibbin' when you claim you ARE willing to "go there" on the issue of eXternalism.

I challenge your claim that eXternalism is not related to, or relevant to, this thread. It is. People who BELIEVE that there is ZERO meaning in anything and everything they "do" OFTEN end up committing suicide (e.g. Buddhists). THIS SENSELESS ACT is born of nihilism. ANYONE that teaches others that there is NOTHING because there is NO THING is nurturing a potential nihilist who may end up committing suicide.

DON'T hair split with me about the importance of MEANING and PURPOSE in human lives. Your worldview EXCLUDES BOTH MEANING AND PURPOSE. But of, course, you will claim that you never said any of that or represent any of that. Well, I think you do. And I think you should take responsibility for telling people there is NOTHING to FEAR out there because there is NO THING, or even an "out there".

The following is an example of REALITY of the planet Earth, irrespective of anything we humans have THOUGHT since we could THINK. There is NO WAY to dance around THAT REALITY (yes you DO try to dance around it!).

Posted by: AGelbert
« on: May 22, 2017, 08:02:35 pm »

Debate with a Monist  8)

The thread was about nihilism and eternalism. Ka, a type of Buddhist Monist, claimed RE had engaged in Ad Hominem against people like him by mocking nihilists by claiming nihilist views are "fear" based.

I stepped in to try to insert some clarity into the discussion.  ;D


Ka,
why do you think being motivated by fear is a negative concept? I agree that being motivated by GROUNDLESS fear is certainly to be disdained, but LOGIC based fear (e.g. some thing, being or event is to be feared because it has been conclusively proven to be deleterious to your continued biochemical activity.), IMHO, is, well, prudent, as well as logical.


Yes, but the question is, is eternalism true or not. To say that eternalists are eternalists only out of fear does not say anything about whether or not eternalism is true. Chapman wouldn't have put that statement in there except to cast doubt on eternalism. just as atheists bring up wish-fulfillment and such to question theism. Even if it were true that all eternalists are fearful of nihilism, that would not in itself make eternalism false. Hence his statement is a logical fallacy. And that kind of fallacy is called an ad hominem, because it refers to the character of the eternalist, and not eternalism itself.

Hmmmm. After all the polite debate between Ka and RE  , I feel the need to expose a fundamental intransigence on the party of the first, second and third (etc.  :icon_mrgreen:) parts in this eruption of erudite debating activity.


So,
It appears that Ka has attempted to dance around the FACT that it offends him for anyone to NOT question the validity of externalism.  ;D

RE is correct  :o  ;D that questioning Externalism to the point of saying it is totally invalid, useless, counterproductive and possibly destructive to human society (paraphrased  ;)) is certainly NOT Ad Hom to Ka, just because Ka thinks our plebian perception of reality is some sort of illusion that we cause and effect types are being fooled into believing. RE and I are on different sides of the universe in regard to SPIRITUAL cause and effect, but that's not relevant to this particular effort by da godfader, so I won't get caught up in that bag of worms here.

RE gets it about the connection between reality and what is external to us and what ain't. Ka not only doesn't get it, he is pissed at anyone who says Ka doesn't get it.

A few years ago I went through excruciating detail explaining the human sensory apparatus. The very ability of Ka to question our assumed cause and effect "externalism" is impossible without that sensory apparatus.

But Ka, even though he is a man I respect immensely, just don't wanna go there.

So, as Comey would say:


Posted by: AGelbert
« on: April 29, 2017, 04:38:49 pm »

Thanks AG.

You are most welcome. I am convinced there was a significant bit of spiritual intercession that day/night.


In terms of boating insanity, one of my best anecdotes is a canoe trip I took with a friend to Verendrye Provincial Park in the Great White North.

I had been there before as a Camper in the Primitive Skills camp I attended as a teenager, so I was the "expert" on this trip.  On the trip with the camp, there were experienced counselors who knew the route, they took it every year.  It covered 3 lakes with 2 portages that were not too long, one maybe a 1/4 mile, the other maybe a 1/2 mile.

I wanted to see all the parts of the park we missed on that trip!  There are dozens of lakes, along with rivers/streams/creeks between them.

So first thing was to order a topographical map of the park to plan the trip.  There was no internet and no Google Earth in those days.  We budgeted 2 weeks for this trip after finals in May.  I picked out what looked like a really cool route on the map of 6 lakes with 3 portages and 2 river connections, which I figured probably had some rapids because there was a significant elevation change between the lakes.  Figured we could handle it though, being a couple of macho 20 year old guys. lol.

So we drive to Canada and first thing is to rent the canoe from an outfitter and give him our launch point and destination for pickup later, along with the estimated date of arrival.  No cell phones in those days either, so if you missed your pickup time, this was not good.  You had to then hitch a ride to the nearest pay phone and get them to come back for you, and pay an additional fee for that.

So OK, I give our route and dates to the guy renting the canoes and he looks at me suspiciously.  In a really thick Hoser accent, he asks me:

"So you have canoed here in Verendrye before?"

"Oh yes, I respond."

"You are sure you can make this route in 2 weeks?" he asks.

"Oh sure." I respond.

"OK, I rent you the canoe.  $300 deposit."

"$300?  Your sign says $100."

"That is for lake trips only.  Not down the rivers."

This of course should have clued me in, but we drove all that way and I didn't want to just paddle around lakes and hoist a canoe on my back on portages, I wanted White Water ADVENTURE!  :o

The canoe is a big old cheap aluminum model, not anything real nice and also costs I think it was $100/week rental fee.  Fortunately we carried a lot of spare cash, since there were no digibit cards then and neither of us had credit cards yet.  The $500 outlay did not leave us much left over though, probably not enough for gas to get back to NYC.  I figured I could wire my mom for more money though to get home.

So he loads the canoe on the trailer and drops us off at Lake 1.  First day is just beautiful, it's about 80F in May in Canada, and this like never happened back in those days.  We paddle across the Lake and make camp, for a portage the next morning to do Lake 2.  Fabulous meal of 2 fresh steaks packed in ice and wrapped in a makeshift cooler of towels and (clean) underwear, along with rice and canned beans.  Rest of the trip was all Freeze Dried food of the era, which amounted to Chicken ala King, Spaghetti with Meat Sauce and "chinese" Pepper Steak.  We smoked a doobie and hit the sack.

Next morning, instant oatmeal for breakfast and we do the portage, first carrying the backpacks along the trail, then going back for the canoe.  Temperature is still climbing, now approaching 90 on day 2, still in the morning.  Work up a nice sweat.  Launch point?  On the map it looked like part of a Lake, in REALITY it was SWAMP attached to the lake!  Mosquitos come out as we begin to paddle through the reeds.  Not a few mosquitos, the air is BLACK with them.  Out of desperation we jump out of the canoe and into the water, walking/swimming the canoe along from underwater and coming up for quick gulps of air, filled with mosquitos.  I takes an hour or so to make it throuh the swamp and into open water.  Mosquitos finally peter out.  We are both bitten up and itchy, but splash the clear cool water on which relieves the itch and we paddle across the lake.  I fill up my canteen with water in the middle of the lake, and drink from it with no boiling, no purification tablets.  Water still pretty clean in those years.

The other side of this lake is the first River connection.  We stop here for 2 days of rest and relaxation, do some fishing and catch some, so we have more fresh food here to go with the freeze dried stuff. Mosquito itching subsides, and we walk the river bank to scope it out, spying where the rocks are and good channels to try and go through.  It doesn't look too bad, so that even though it's an open canoe, we elect to try it with our gear in the canoe, rather than walk it with gear first, then go back for an empty canoe ride.  This was a mistake.

We did in fact make the whole ride without capsizing, although we did not hit all the channels we had planned to.  By the time we were halfway down the river, we had shipped about half the canoe full of water.  Our packs were stewing in this, and the canoe itself was wallowing deep in the water and hitting every rock on the ricer bed.  SCRAPE, SCRAPE, DENT, DENT.  Scrapes and dents were a minimum of $10/inch off your deposit money on the canoe for repairs.  All our gear was SOAKED.  It took a day to get everything dried out.

On the second portage my friend sprained his ankle.  Not really bad, but enough we had to wait 2 days to get rolling again, because the canoe was just too heavy for me to portage alone.  Now we were starting to run behind schedule.  The second river run was about the same as the first, although this time we were smart enough to bring our packs down on foot first, then go back for an empty canoe ride.  We still hit more rocks though.  SCRAPE, SCRAPE, DENT, DENT!

We did make our pickup on time, paddling well into the night the 2 days before the meeting time.  The Hoser who picked us up look genuinely surprised we made it.  He looked at the dented up wreck of a canoe and laughed.  Back at his shop, he gave us estimate on repairs, $500.  $200 more than the deposit!  No got the money.  Drives me to a supply store with Western Union and I wire mom for the money.  Comes through, and we are free to drive back to NYC.

For $500 then you could have bought a brand spanking new canoe of this type, and he probably did that rather than repair it.

RE

Ouch! But hey, you came out okay so it was a good experience. As we used to say in pilot training, any flight you can walk away from is a good one.     ;D
Posted by: AGelbert
« on: April 28, 2017, 02:52:27 pm »

I've got one for you. Let me lay a little groundwork first.

I first went sailing with some friends when I was in college. I grew up around ski boats and fishing boats, the kind working class  people used to be able to afford when I was young , but coming from rural East Texas, I was not exposed to sailing at all as a kid. That was something rich people did. I never even thought much about it. But once I tried it, I was hooked for life. However, for four long years of dental school, I was nose to the grindstone. I didn't even have the time to read a book for pleasure. Dental school is roughly equivalent to carrying about a 25 hour load as an undergrad. I was at school every weekday from 7:30 am until midnight most nights, when they made us leave and go home whether we wanted to or not. Four years, with a month off for summers. I worked as a research assistant during the summer breaks. I needed the money.

When I got out of school in San Antonio and moved to Houston to start my residency in pediatrics, I scrimped together enough money to spend maybe a thousand bucks on a very neglected but very worthy old Flying Scot, a 20 ft daysailor with a big swing keel with a windlass. I didn't even know where to go to put it in the water. I asked someone, and they said people sailed on Offut's Bayou in Galveston. I proceeded to hook up the trailer to my 1976 Toyota Corolla Wagon (1600cc's, 5 speed manual transmission, roughly half the size of the boat) and headed down there to check it out.

Fortunately, the freeway on to Galveston Island crosses Offut's Bayou, so I found it without much trouble. I backed down the public ramp and launched my vessel. I was pretty busy between the hospital and two part-time side jobs, but I found time a couple of times a month to drive down there and begin to figure out how to sail a boat. By the time I was out, two years later, I at least knew a tack from a jibe, and enough not to get blown on to a lee shore. There was a lot more about sailing I didn't know, far more than I did know. But when we moved to Austin i pulled the Scot down (now behind my new Ford Bronco II, the worst car I ever owned...but that's another story).

When we had moved to Houston, my two oldest girls were ages 2 1/2 and 6 months. Near the Med Center there was a fairly famous infant swimming school, the Phil Hansell Academy. Remember that article from Life Magazine in the 1960's that documented how children younger than a year could be taught to float and even swim? Phil Hansell (one time swim coach for University of Houston) got in on that early wave, and started such a training center. By the time we came to town, it had been in business over 20 years, and it's still there now. The teachers there have taught thousands of babies how to float on their backs fully clothed, with a soaked diaper. The kids don't graduate until they can do that.


A Typical Infant Swimmer (after 3-6 months of training)

On the wall at Phil Hansell are displayed many letters, photos,  and anecdotes from parents whose children's lives were subsequently saved in various water accidents as a result of their training, even one involving a toddler who fell through an open manhole and floated far below street level in a storm sewer for half an hour until the fire department could get a man down. Expecting a corpse, they were surprised to find a floating kid who wasn't even that upset.

My wife wanted to put our girls in swimming lessons, and so we did. We lived in some student apartments owned by the University of Texas, which had an Olympic pool. Very soon my kids were known around the complex as swimming prodigies, and the late Dr. Red Duke (trauma surgeon turned TV personality) who had a regular spot on the nightly evening news, even sent out a camera crew to video my kids, and they were on TV one night, for maybe 30 seconds. LOL. Frequently, people who didn't know they were completely water safe, would jump into the pool and try to rescue them, or just walk up and give us a ration of **** about not watching our kids around the pool. It was a great joke for me and my wife.

Fast forward to the summer of '87. We moved to Austin, and I started asking again about where to put in a sailboat on Lake Travis. My wife's brother allowed as he had seen people sailing at a place called Windy Point, so once again, I hitched up the trailer and went to check it out.

There are no coincidences.

Now, today, Windy Point would be the last place I'd go to launch a sailboat on Lake Travis. Very shallow water, no boat ramp. I had to back way out into the water in my car to try to launch, and it still wasn't easy. A guy about ten years older than us offered to help us launch. He'd been sailing a borrowed Sunfish, but had just broken his rudder. He helped me launch the Scot, and bummed a ride. Turned out he was a single Dad who lived right in our neighborhood and had a son right between my kids in age. We would go on to become best friends and sailing buddies (on a long string of boats) for decades. He was already an experienced sailor, but not on small boats.

We spent the whole summer sailing our asses off, kids along, often all three kids and me, my wife and our new friend Terry.


A Flying Scot Under Full Sail

In Texas it isn't always obvious when summer ends. We went out one fine Sunday, the first weekend in November, 1987. The weather was glorious, the water still fairly tolerable for swimming, and the wind was blowing a steady 10-15 knots. By this time we were feeling pretty good about our expertise, and we "put the rail in the water" as they say, and spent a great afternoon sailing across the main basin in Lake Travis. Now, one thing you should know, is that lake sailing can be tricky. Unlike the bay, the wind is constantly changing direction and speed, and promontories of land can put you out of the wind completely. Eventually, Terry and I would know that lake like the back of our hands, but we were still newbies then.

We had already named the main basin "The Vortex" because of the weird wind effects there. One side of the lake is lined with high cliffs. At the top is a huge destination restaurant and bar called The Oasis, which bills itself as "The Sunset Capital of Texas". The wind along the cliffs creates whirls and eddies and you can never tell exactly what you might get hit with next.

We stayed out until very few other boats were still on the lake. The wind started to rise a bit, but we didn't pay that much attention. We had put away a few beers, and we were having fun. Terry was at the helm...if you can call lying on your back with one hand on the rudder and the other holding the mainsheet "at the helm".

Then, suddenly, it all went very wrong. A big gust, and we heeled way over. Terry let go the main and I let go the jib. but the mainsheet (the line that lets the mainsail release, thereby de-powering the sail and preventing a capsize), got caught under someone's foot. In one long second, we got knocked down. We were in the drink. Me, Terry, my wife, and my two girls. His kid was not there. Mom's weekend.

The Scot has a somewhat unique rig. The main halyard (the line that raises and drops the main sail) is not a rope. It's a cable, and it works by turning a tiny little ratcheting winch in a box affixed to the mast. To drop the main, you need the winch handle. The winch handle was gone. As we went over, my oldest girl grabbed the boom, and I had to pry her strong little hands off of it to keep her from being dragged under as the boat proceeded to turtle,

The kids had on life jackets. The rest of us grabbed one and put it on. Nobody was hurt. Everyone was fine.

Except...the sun was going down and the water was getting colder. There wasn't a single boat in sight. Terry and I finally stood on the centerboard together and stood the boat back up. But it was too full of water to bail, and the wet main, still up, was making the boat unstable. It could turtle again anytime. We were already getting exhausted. 


A Swamped Scot

Within a few minutes, I knew we were in real trouble. I was cold, but the kids were really cold, teeth chattering cold. Blue skin cold. They wouldn't last an hour. No way. The sun set and we were way too far from shore to swim in. It started to get dark.

Just about the time I was coming to the realization that my kids were in danger of dying of exposure, a small cabin sailboat, sails furled, motored up under the power of a tiny outboard. They took my wife and kids onboard and dried them off. We didn't want to abandon our boat. It was too unstable to tow, though. So....Terry and I stayed onboard and sat on opposite sides on the gunwales and kept the wobbling boat upright, while they towed us to shore, which took about an hour. Their tiny motor strained just to pull the Scot with its cockpit full of water and its flapping main sail.

It was nearly 10pm before we were able to secure our boat to some rocks near the put-in, where we left it for the night, still full of water. We would return the next day to bail it and put in back on the trailer.


The actual site of our accident. The shore is not nearly as close at it looks.

I was colder than I ever remember being. Our rescuers gave me some dry sweats and towels, and I stripped off my wet t-shirt and shorts and put them on, but my teeth kept chattering for a half hour and I didn't get warm for hours. Not until I was home in bed. We quickly thanked our rescuers and they motored off. My wife drove us home, because neither Terry nor I was was able to drive.

About ten years later, my wife was attending an adult bible class here at Riverbend Church one Sunday. The teacher asked everyone in the class to recount some experience they'd had that had made a real impact on them. The people in the class took turns telling about things that had happened to them.

One woman started to tell a story about a day when her family had been at the lake, motoring in at dusk, when they came upon a derelict sailboat and some people with little kids stranded in the middle of the lake....and how they pulled them out of the water and saved their lives. As the story progressed, my wife suddenly realized she was talking about rescuing us!  So she finally had the chance to thank them properly.

I'm sure they'll never forget what they did for us. Neither will I. What would have happened if they hadn't stopped to help us? I'm not sure. But the outcome might have been very tragic. I learned a lesson that day about sailing. A hard lesson I'll never forget.



EXCELLENT! Thank you, Eddie! 
Posted by: AGelbert
« on: April 27, 2017, 06:54:06 pm »

I've been thinking about what story to tell here.  I've told a lot of stories on the Diner over the years, and I don't want to repeat one I've told before.  I've probably told most of the best ones.  I don't think I've ever told the story of the pollywog/shellback nonsense from the Navy days.  Basically when you cross the equator on a Navy ship you have to be initiated into the kingdom of Neptune  :dontknow:  It's pretty old tradition and here's the wiki link on this fiasco:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line-crossing_ceremony

Quote
In the 19th century and earlier, the line-crossing ceremony was quite a brutal event, often involving beating pollywogs with boards and wet ropes and sometimes throwing the victims over the side of the ship, dragging the pollywog in the surf from the stern. In more than one instance, sailors were reported to have been killed while participating in a line-crossing ceremony.

As late as World War II, the line-crossing ceremony was still rather rough and involved activities such as the "Devil's Tongue", which was an electrified piece of metal poked into the sides of those deemed pollywogs. Beatings were often still common, usually with wet firehoses, and several World War II Navy deck logs speak of sailors visiting sick bay after crossing the line.

Efforts to curtail the line-crossing ceremony did not begin until the 1980s, when several reports of blatant hazing began to circulate regarding the line-crossing ceremony, and at least one death was attributed to abuse while crossing the line.


Now, y'all know how I felt about the Navy while I was in.  Our crossing of the equator was happening as we were sailing back to the states after dropping 3 million pounds of ordinance on Afghanistan days after 9/11.  We had just had liberty in Singapore for a few days (which was the first port since the bombing campaign started...we were at sea for 115 consecutive days).  While I was in Singapore I almost went UA (unauthorized absence).  I had went into an internet cafe and researched on how to change my identity.  I had paid for some pamphlet with detailed instructions on how to do it.  Minutes before it was time to get back on the shuttle that would take me back to the ship I was still contemplating whether to go UA or not.  Ultimately, because I was in a foreign country, and at the behest of my only friend on the ship, I decided to get on the damn shuttle and take my sorry ass back to that sorry ass ship. 

A couple of days later and we are going out of our way to cross the equator so that we can be initiated as Shellbacks.  From Singapore to Hawaii you don't cross the equator, but we were crossing it, going out of our way to do so.  This was 2001, and by then the Navy was allowing sailors to opt out of the proceedings. 

It was highly recommended by the chain of command that all sailors participate.  In fact you were mostly coerced into it even if you didn't want to, and by the chain of command.  Never mind all of the peer pressuring.  Nobody wanted to do the horrible things that were done to you during this ridiculous excuse to **** with your inferiors, and in some cases superiors.  It was a way to get a lot of rage out on your fellow shipmates.  I was bound and determined that I would have nothing to do with this barbaric display of suppressed anger.  I made sure to sign my waiver and opted out.  In my division I think there was only one other individual that opted out.  So, day of the crossing, and I'm blissfully in my rack, listening to music, enjoying my time off (that was a rarity). 

Disgusting and putrid things were done to you during this hazing process.  Eating jelly out of the fat chiefs belly button, crawling around on the smoke deck with a leash and collar on, and all manner of disgusting concoctions were made for the occasion.  Think mayo mixed with syrup and ketchup and pickles and anything else that was in the galley that could be added to make the most horrid experience possible for the pollywogs to endure.  Not me, **** you, I was in my rack enjoying my time off while all of the idiots participated in the ridiculousness.  Safe and sound, until I wasn't any longer. 

You see, in the lounge of my berthing all of the idiots had assembled and created a mass of crawling worms with their almost naked bodies.  They had all striped down to their skives, my entire division, and had created a 40 person dog pile of disgusting sailor bodies mixed with the fore mentioned galley concoction.  I was pulled out of my rack by several mouth breathers and thrown into this noxious pile of retards.  I was the only one clothed due to my forced participation.  I ended up on the bottom of this pile of odious bodies.  Attempting to claw my way out and some fat ass decided to belly flop onto me from a couch.  He landed and nearly broke my arm.  I clawed my way out of this pile of fat and goo and retreated to my rack.  I suppose the group think was satisfied since I was now covered in goo and boat funk.  I went straight to my rack, grabbed my shower bag, and headed off to the head to get clean. 

On my way up the ladder, just to the top, and that's when the ship listed 12 degrees to the port side.  At 15 degrees the tower on a carrier is designed to snap off of the ship and into Davy Jones' locker to keep the ship upright.  I had a firm grip on the ladder when it happened.  I watched as the slippery bodies tossed and turned over one another.  A few people went cruising down the p-ways being unable to pull off enough traction to stay upright.  It seems that we were headed straight into a tropical storm and it was sufficiently bad enough to where we had to change course.  In perfect navy style we never crossed the equator  :laugh:  Also in perfect Navy style they still allowed all of the pollywogs to become shellbacks even though it's about crossing the equator and we never did cross it. 

As soon as the p-way was back to an even keel I got my ass to the head and showered.  In the five minutes it took me to shower the p-ways had turned into a line of sailors all waiting for the head so they to could shower.  Of course they were all covered from head to toe in pollywog grease and looked exceptionally miserable.  The Captain had informed us all on the 1mc that we were not going to cross the equator due to the storm, so all of these idiots were in the state they were in and still gonna be pollywogs  :laughing6:  I felt exceptionally justified as I walked back to my rack past all of these disgusting idiots.  I had just gotten ahead of this line.  Every head on the ship had a line of sailors stretching further than one could see.  Basically the entire ship was trying to catch a shower at the same time.  I had just finished my shower.   I felt like I was the only one that had become a Shellback in that moment.
Great story.


LD, that was a rather timely tropical storm. I know you aren't into that sort of belief system, but I think God has a great sense of humor.   

I got my share and then some of hazing back at West Point. It was so bad in the summer of 1964 that a cadet was paralized. It was inadvertent. They has him doing the roach. That's where you lay on your back with a rifle at port arms and move your legs double time. The kid made some kind of move with his neck and, though he did not break his neck, somehow lost nerve sensation below the neck.  :emthdown:
That slowed the hazing down for a while. One of those fun things they would make us do is sweat through our bath robes (shower formation ) while bracing and reciting at the top of our lung capacity (if we didn't yell it out, the upperclassmen would say, "POP OFF!") all kinds of memory crap from our bugle notes plebe 'bible' (army poems, proverbs, snippets of speeches from generals, songs, rank insignias for all services from the lowest to the commander in chief, etc.).

I actually thought some of that idiocy was funny at the time. But hey, I was 17 and thoroughly brainwashed to worship all things military.   

They know how to turn people into mindless killing robots in the military. 
Posted by: AGelbert
« on: April 26, 2017, 07:52:06 pm »

Very well put AG.

Don't get me wrong, sign me up for one of these 4th Reichstag's windup plastic run-abouts, there cool as ****.

I'm seasoned, AG's seasoned. We both possess a ticket to ride. I'm not current at this point in time. 30 days of
review in reg's, weather, sim time, left seat with an instructor & whaa-la I'm a Legal Eagle again. Oh, yeah & the medical.  :icon_mrgreen:

SOOOOOO, it's complicated & for "1st timers" that's a BIG hurdle.
The point is, the ego is being tickled & the brain is in the caboose. Eye candy with big consequences.
If you'll notice in the vid, no one was aboard. That was a big boy toy drone test flight. These cats haven't even
received GOOBERmint approval to have a test pilot flight yet.

I'll take a Cherokee 6, an attractive female hostage, leave Lauderdale airspace & head to little Guana Cay for lunch.
 

  

So, you've flown a six? I put quite a few hours into those birds way back when. Here's a short war story from my air taxi rat days:
Piper Cherokee Six

It was the San Juan to Vieques flight in a 260 hp Cherokee six sometime in 1969. The folks that lived in Vieques would fly to San Juan and buy stuff to take back to their island (half of it - the other half was routinely being blown to smithereens as a bomb fun and games place for the Navy and Marines - it looked like the moon  :P).

Vieques islanders were  sort of country bumpkins to the average cosmopolitan San Juan dweller. Country folks are very practical and aren't real particular about appearances.  ;D On this particular flight I had some people carrying sacks of potatoes (I eyed these carefully when I did my weight and balance  ;)) and a lady that had some live and healthy (and noisy) chickens. I can't imagine why, but country folks also smell a bit ripe on a hot day in the tropics... Perhaps it's fear of flying that makes them perspire a bit more than normal, but I was always glad for my tiny flip down pilot seat window...  :D

Well we, took off and encountered a lot of wind noise. I called the tower at the international airport 5 miles east of my air taxi base (Isla Grande airport) and asked for a touch and go, which they approved. It seems the latch over the door had not sealed the door properly.  I had a friend riding in the right seat (he wasn't a pilot) and I asked him to see if he could force the door open a bit and then try to pull it closed again (we are in flight approaching the international airport at this time). He did that (sound of torrent of air going by at 150 mph) and the lady with the chickens screamed. The chickens weren't too happy about that either.  :D

It didn't work. So, we landed, slowed down and did that again until we got that silly latch to catch right. Without ever coming to a stop, we just took off again and flew east over the north coast of Puerto Rico and then southeast to the island of Vieques.

The landing was "routine" but I should explain to you what that entailed at Vieques. They have a weird runway there.  :P The runway, when you are landing going east (which is almost always) is much higher than the other end. To further complicate matters, the runway elevation goes UP after the threshold before it starts to go DOWN.

All that is a great advantage when you are taking off but a bit tricky when you are landing. AZ, you obviously know about ground effect and low wing aircraft fun and games. A runway sloping down hill is a ground effect nightmare that can lead you to overrun the runway if you don't watch it!

I don't know if you have ever flown a FULLY LOADED TO THE GILLS Cherokee six. They are very squirrelly on landing. You know that the normal drill is to round out and then flare out, right? Well that would result in way to much FLOAT at Vieques.

So, I came up with a trick to deal with that.  ;) ;D  I would establish approach speed at a fixed pitch attitude. That's right, I would NOT flare. I would bring her over the threshold watching for the slight runway rise just before the downhill part started WITH MY HAND ON THE FLAP HANDLE (I had full flaps at this time, of course  8)). As I reached the bump I would lower the flaps to touch the main wheels without any pitch change and remove all flaps and hit the toe brakes. It worked like a charm. The people, potatoes and chickens all arrived safely. 

I taught a few other pilots to do that and they said, HEY, it works! Flaps are just supposed to be there to steepen the glide path on approach when you apply them, not when you remove them, so we all agreed the FAA would not understand our cool trick and that we would never tell the feds about it.

Getting back to the Electric Airplane subject, most people are not aware that aircraft internal combustion engines mostly fail when you are at full power, which happens to be when you are taking off and need that engine the most. Electric motors, can fail at any time. But when they do, it's almost always temperature related. Which means they will rarely fail on take off because they are fresh! For large EV flying machines, having a bunch of motors will make them far more reliable than internal combustion or even jet engines (less moving parts to fail).

I can imagine the FAA coming up with some BULLSHIT about having to learn engine motor out procedure for 30 different configurations on an Electric bird with 30 motors just to keep anybody from ever being able to check out in it. That's what they do. 
Posted by: AGelbert
« on: April 24, 2017, 06:46:40 pm »

Agelbert's Aerobatic Adventure - In A NON-Aerobatic Aircraft :o  :P   

Once upon a time, I was young and a newly licensed Private Pilot. I had racked up about 53 hours of flying time, passed my 4 hour written test and my one hour flight test so I figured I had most of this flying stuff all figured out. I was now starting my commercail pilot training which required a total of 160 hours. A lot of this time was solo flying practicing advanced maneuvers such as chandelles, lazy eights, pivotal altitude hold while circling a ground reference point, several kinds of stalls, engine out procedures, emergency landing procedures and some extended cross country flights.

But most of that was in the future. I had already flown my mother as my mandatory first passenger now that I was a bona fide licensed pilot and could legally carry passengers (without charging for it, of course).

I modified the last part of the tail number on the cherokee 140 above. It's not the one I flew but is identical in appearance and paint job.

This bright sunny day I boarded Zero Nine Whisky (N--09W tail number) Cherokee 140 trainer aircraft to accumulate some flying time towards my minimum required for a commercial pilot license. Zero Nine Whiskey was my favorite of the aircraft. It had a pretty paint job and was the plane I had soloed in. It was an old friend to me by now. I didn't have any particular plan except to go out over the everglades practice area and repeat some of the maneuvers I already knew. 

Of course, being young, curious, over confident and foolish, I wanted to expand my knowledge of how the aircraft responded in somewhat, shall we say, higher pitch attitudes than the every day dull training fare.

If you have ever heard the expression, "pushing the envelope", let me tell you that it is originally and aviatior's expression stolen from us by you ground pounders to make your dull lives seem more exciting!

Yes, dear readers, Agelbert was fixin' to push the envelope.

The flight "envelope" is the airspeed range and pitch attitude (angle above or below the horizon) as well as bank angle range of the wings that the aircraft is designed to fly at. If you leave the envelope when you are in the air, you are entering the danger zone. WHY? Because the aircraft can suffer catastrophic structural damage, engine, failure or a combination thereof. If this happpens near the ground, you are done. If it happens 4 to 5 thousand feet up, you MIGHT be able to recover and live through it. You have a little more time but your survival usually depends more on luck than skill.

Recently licensed Private Pilots are not too long on skill...

I taxied out, took off and flew northwest about 10 miles to the practice area. This area over the Florida Everglades was (in 1966) in the middle of nowhere. There were a few roads near some farms that had boundaries by the glades but otherwise it was all swamp and you were alligator food if you went down there.

Cherokee in cruise flight at about 115 mph over Ohio, not the Everglades.

On the plus side for a designated practice area, it was flat, far away from people or cows (our flight school had been told to NOT allow the student pilots to practice low approaches to emergency landings near cows because it caused abortions), and arrival and departure aircraft traffic to Opa Locka or Miami International Airports. Besides, it was within radio range of several ATC towers so if you had an emergency, you could set 121.5 on your radio and call for help before you made a forced landing even if you were at a low altitude.

Out over the practice area at 2,000 feet, I practiced a few engine out procedures and checked the area for potential landing sites that I could reach with the power off. It didn't look all that great but I would pick a spot and pretend I had to put it down right there. At about 300 feet I would apply full power and climb away looking down at the spot to see what sort of a mess I would have made if I had actually landed there.

I then decided to try something new. I knew I might have some "difficulties" so I climbed to 5,000 feet (the recommended altitude for stall and spin practice). I may write about an exciting and humorous adventure with spins someday but that was still in the future for me then. For this adventure, I must explain to you what a "stall" is before I explain my imaginative variation of it.

An aircraft flies because a low pressure area forms over the upper surface of the wing in direct proportion to the velocity of said wing and the angle of the wing to the air movement (relative wind). The point is that the wings are sucked up and the aircraft flies. 

Straight and level flight (arrow) ----> produces enough lift to not go up or down. When you pull back on the control point the aircraft nose higher, you are increasing the pitch attitude. A Cherokee 140 normally flies at a pitch attitude of a few degrees (positive pitch).

A stall has nothing to do with the engine. A stall is what happens when the low pressure area over the wing surface gets disturbed (burble point) by too high a pitch attitude and the wings no longer produce lift. The maneuver is performed by gradually increasing the pitch attitude with a certain designated power on or power off condition (or something in between) until the nose shakes a little and noses down as the wings hit the burble point.

Stall recovery is performed by establishing a negative pitch (nose below normal glide pitch) to pick up flying speed while applying full power simultaneously. Panicky student pilots have a tendency to point the nose down steeply and upset their flight instructors. After some practice, students learn that the secret of stall recovery is just to put that nose down to a few degrees below glide pitch and, of course, keep the plane from banking with the rudder so you don't get into an inadvertent stall-spin.

The most challenging stall recovery is a power on stall because the nose is pitched about 40 degrees up (much higher than for a power off stall) and the burble point stall break is snappy. It's also harder to keep the plane straight to avoit a spin entry due to one wing stalling before the other.

Well, I knew all that. I had that down! Let us see, I said to myself, what happens when we REALLY pick up the nose with full power?   


I pushed the throttle all the way and pulled the nose as far back as I could about 60 degrees). The effect was a much more violent stall (imagine a bucking bronco) break and the plane trying to spin this way and that. But I recovered within a few hundred feet of altitude loss which was well within limits for a power on stall.

I thought about that for a while. I wanted a 90 degree pitch up nose position (straight up!) but, even with full power, I couldn't get there before the plane stalled. Bummer.
So, I applied full power again and lowered the nose to pick up maneuvering speed (129 mph designated aircraft speed where structural damage could not occur from control movements). ZOOM!

At 129 mph I gradually lifted the nose all the way to 90 degrees! Yippee! There I was, going straight up like a fighter pilot!


I then waited for the stall break and the nose to pitch forward. And I waited. And I waited. The airspeed went down past 60, which was no flaps stalling speed, and kept going down. Fifty, forty, THIRTY (WTF!), TWENTY!!! (I pulled the power off and tried to nose the aircraft over - no response - I was going too slow to ahve ANY EFFECT on the fight controls - I was basically a rock tossed in the air at this point approaching the peak of a ballistic trajectory), TEN, ZERO!

Now it gets really good. The cherokee 140 is a utility trainer aircraft. That means it is capable of withstanding 4.4  G forces plus and 2.2 G minus. Aerobatic aircraft can handle 6.6 both ways with out structural issues. I knew this. I knew I was not in a Citabria or Stearman that could do whip stalls and tail slides and hammer head stalls at air shows just for fun. Cherokees have a stabilator (instead of an elevator) on the tail that is quite easy to break. If that breaks, you are dead, period.

You DO NOT want to stress the stabilator, EVER.

I went weightless. My pilot briefcase began floating in the air next to me. The wind noise was picking up rapidly and the airspeed still read ZERO!


Panic time! I decided to release the controls because ANYTHING I did would translate BACKWARDS because the aircraft was "flying" backwards. I did NOT want to bust that stabilator. I wanted to get that nose DOWN somehow. As a kid I had thown gliders in the air and watched them tail slide and whip stall to a nose down pitch and recover. I was counting on that but my confidence level was measurable in fractions of an inch at the moment.

Hanging by my seatbelt, I experienced the most violent forward whip stall forward you can imagine. That is probably what save my life. Had the stabilator caused a BACKWARD whip stall, it would probably have broken off. Without the ability to control the pitch attitude, even with engine power, a small aircraft will nose hard into the ground destroying the airframe and killing the pilot.


I watched the blue sky instantly change to brown everglades. It was weird. The nose did not just go from straight up to straight down; it went from straight up to a pendulum movement. I still hadn't touched the controls. The airspeed had, of course, been increasing all along but it didn't show because aircraft measure airspeed with a pitot tube that faces the relative wind. Planes don't generally fly backwards. LOL!

The moment the plane whipped over to the glades facing pendulous rocking movement, the airspeed went from zero to ABOVE VNE (Never Exceed Velocity - about 160). The airspeed indicator was PEGGED!


That was another fright. I realized the flip had occurred above maneuvering speed and was sweating the possibility I had lost my stabilator.

I  reached for the controls and, ever so gradually, applied back pressure to get out of the dive without tearing the wings off. Also, if I pull back too hard and too quick, that was another chance to over stress the stabilator (if I still had one) that I didn't want to risk.

It worked. I hadn't lost my stabilator! Gravity returned and I got the airspeed back to 115 mph normal cruise. I had lost about 3,500 feet. I applied power.

Nothing. Engine failure. Argh.

I turned on the electric fuel pump (this aircraft has a manual fuel pump but uses the electric fuel pump to aid starting and engine restart in the air) and set 121.5 emergency frequency on my radio and looked for a place to put Zero Nine Whiskey down.

At 800 feet the best place looked like a dirt embankment in the Everglades. I began a final approach and had the mike in my hand to begin transmitting mayday when the engine sputtered on. Believe it or not, my greatest relief at the moment was not having to embarrass myself by radioing an emergency.

Such is the foolish pride of the young.


I hooked the mike back on to the panel and changed to tower frequency, radioed that I was inbound about 15 miles northwest and brought her home (without turning the electric fuel pump off until I was safely on the runway).

I taxied to the grass parking area at the fight school and shut own the aircraft.

Then I noticed something that needed to be taken care of. The cowling above the panel was full of dirt! The whip stall had been so violent that every speck of dirt on the floor had been thrown up and then forward and down onto the cowling as I applied gradual back pressure to pull the aircraft out of the dive. The floor looked like someone had done a great vacuuming job on it. LOL!

I called a line boy and said there was a lot of dirt on the cowling that should be cleaned up. He looked at it  and asked, How did that get there?". I said, "I don't know." and quickly walked into the office to sign out...".

NOTE: Zero Nine Whisky was NOT damaged. I flew over 50 hours in that aircraft subsequently along with hundreds of hours by other pilots and flight instructors.

I pre-flighted VERY closely the aircraft a day later and, had I seen the least bit of evidence of stabilator stress, would have reported it.

I know, I should have reported it anyway but I was foolishly and pridefully afraid to besmirch my pilot record because it would reduce my chances of getting hired by the airlines.


All I can say is the Piper Cherokee 140 is an excellent trainer aircraft.

So that is how a foolish young man happened to cheat death in 1966.


If you liked this true story by Agelbert, be nice and register. 

Agelbert giving his first lecture on Renewable Energy. 

Have a pleasant day.   ;D

Renewable Revolution
Posted by: AGelbert
« on: April 24, 2017, 06:18:47 pm »

In 1971 I was drafted into the armed service. The Viet Nam war was in high gear. I was living in the Bay Area, Ca. and there was a lot of protests against the war. I had read the "The Pentagon Papers", and had met some guys who had returned from the war. I had been on my own since about the age of 14, my Mother died a year earlier and Father became an alcoholic. So I made the decision to become a Conscientious Objector. You have to serve 2 years in the States doing community service work, and can only be paid $100 a month. C.O.'s do not get any Military help after completion of the 2 years.

  My first year I joined a Conservation Corp. and went to a camp around Mt. Lassen. We helped the US Forest service build roads, clear messed up terrain, and fought forest fires ( mainly mop up on the perimeters). I once got doused by fire retardant dropped by a plane, nice. :)

I was a "born again" Christian at this time. I found out about a Church of Christ mission in the Ghettos of NYC. I was able to do my second year at this organization, called "Shiloh". We lived in East NY and Brownsville from late September through April, and then brought a ton of kids to a camp in New Jersey.

  We lived in a tenement apartment with rats, cockroaches, and urine in all the halls. One of the leaders almost lost his eye because he got slugged in a pick up basketball game on the street park. One staff girl was rapped. There were two robbery's in our apartments.

  While playing vollyball with the staff at the local gym, I tore my right knee cartilage. I didn't know that yet though. The first thing I did was go to local doctor. On the way a big older street bum walked up beside me and started walking with me. He suddenly said "I have a .45 pointed right at you." ( buldge in his coat) We keep walking then he say "What are you doing here?" I said I worked at Shiloh . He says "where do you live?" I said over on Wilson in an apartment just a few blocks away." We keep walking, he says "Well, why didn't you tell me so!" Ok, I just did. Then he slowed down and stopped and turned around.
 
  The doctor was an old Jewish fellow. He said I just sprained it real bad so he put a cast on my knee to keep it immobile. Well it didn't and when the cartilage popped out on my knee bone it felt like being stabbed with a knife. I had the top bunk and jumped up to get some rest and my knee went out. This time I couldn't strech my leg out to pop the cartilage back in place. So I am in the top bunk being stabbed in the knee. I crawled down and to the kitchen , got a hammer and a butter knife, and cut the cast off to stretch my leg. It worked. I eventually had knee surgery in "The Hospital for Special Surgery" where Joe Namath had his knees repaired. I also roomed with a concert violinist. I was playing my guitar one day and he says "that sounded really good." That is when I found out about his mastery of the violin/music. I was really embarrassed because I just could play rock, rhythm and blues, and some jazz. But he insisted that I played really well. That was cool.

  Another time I was going through the neighborhoods knocking on doors to see if anyone had children they wanted to send to camp. The black guys crossed the street and started following me and getting closer. I tried to stay cool, and then one of them mentioned Shiloh. That was enough to back them off. We did a lot for the neighborhood, and was mostly welcome there.

  Two years later my supervisor and friend was shot and killed while walking a kid to his apartment.

  Speaking of these anecdotes from the oil consumption days, we got put on the even/odd license plate gas fill up. On our day we had to wait in a line of about 50 cars at time.

ANOTHER FABULOUS ANECDOTE!

This is shaping up well already!

RE

 

Knarf, my hat is off to you for making this sad world a better place. I am indebted to you for your sacrifices on behalf of the downtrodden. The fact that, though you were forced to be a man at 14, you went out of your way to help others, is an example to all of us of what we should be like.

Thank you, from the bottom of my heart. 

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