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Author Topic: Money  (Read 6111 times)

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AGelbert

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    • Agelbert Truth AND Consequences
Re: Money
« Reply #555 on: February 22, 2019, 01:10:28 pm »

As far as capitalist economies promote freedom of organization and flow of capital/people/information without undue state coercion, and recognizes the sinful nature of humans, it is in line with Christian principles. Our economic arrangements seep into social and culture and politics, so the less coercion the better in most areas. However that's about as far as I would take it.  What's a much better match with Christian principles is a constitutional republic, with fundamental rights and responsibilities, vertically divided government, specialized branches, checks and balances, staggered terms, so on and so forth. What the forefathers managed to accomplish here is truly a miracle.

Thank you for well and truly demonstrating that you are insane. Irredeemably. A bag-em-and-tag-em nutcase.


Quote
As far as capitalist economies promote freedom of organization and flow of capital/people/information without undue state coercion, and recognizes the sinful nature of humans, it is in line with Christian principles.

What does this statement even mean? this is as devoid of relationship to the real world as is the worldview of the typical Fox News viewer to the political landscape. Neoliberalism posits a universe where every action a market transaction, conducted in competition with all others. the perfection of free market fundamentalism. We've been steadily marching toward this exalted state since St. Reagan. Do you really think we have  "flow of capital/people/information" without the fat thumb of corporate lobbyists influencing legislation with the specific aim of picking winners and losers? Ever heard of ALEC? How about Murray Energy, trying to get Trump to set aside the TVA's decision to close a coal fired plant? And what is, "undue state coercion?" Taxation? In the view of tiresome free market fundamentalists like you, "undue state coercion" is any law of regulation. that keeps the boot of a rich man off the neck of a poor man.

And as for "capitalism recognizing the sinful nature of human," it's to laugh. Capitalism thrives upon the sinful nature of humans. To the extent it recognizes it all. Capitalism is completely indifferent to all human qualities aside from greed. Capitalism demands that we are all Ferengi. "Capitalist economies" promote only their own profits. It means money talks and, unless you have some to contribute, just shut the fu ck up and have the human decency to die, and die quickly.

The Holy Mary, Mother of God herself, Margaret Thatcher, even famously said, "There's no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbors. Maybe. If there's anything left. And if we feel like it." And we all gathered the electronic campfire for s'mores and a chuckle when Dutch said, "Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem," which is the Lord's Prayer of free market fundamentalists. Which Christian principles is this in line with, aside from "Render unto Caesar?" Which we are taught Jesus meant as a call to look beyond the cares of this world, and which FMFs hear as, "Make sure Caesar gets his."

Utterly delusional.


Jesus, man, this should be straightforward, but I'll break it down for you a bit.

Nothing is ever straighforward with you, as you like to shade, reframe and obfuscate with every post. right out of the Frank Luntz playbook. Unfortunately, those here can read for comprehension.

What does this statement even mean? this is as devoid of relationship to the real world as is the worldview of the typical Fox News viewer to the political landscape. Neoliberalism posits a universe where every action a market transaction, conducted in competition with all others. the perfection of free market fundamentalism. We've been steadily marching toward this exalted state since St. Reagan. Do you really think we have  "flow of capital/people/information" without the fat thumb of corporate lobbyists influencing legislation with the specific aim of picking winners and losers? Ever heard of ALEC? How about Murray Energy, trying to get Trump to set aside the TVA's decision to close a coal fired plant?

The idea of lobbyists influencing legislation that PICKS winner and losers in the market is exactly anathema to the goals of free market capitalism. In contrast, picking the winners is the STATED GOAL of socialist utopias.

All organized institutions will tilt towards corruption and tyranny over time and need to be balanced out and refreshed. This is NOT a symptom of capitalism and can't be, because it has has been happening for thousands of years.

And this has exactly what to do with the corruption we observe now, and the public willingness of the elected "people's servants" to do anything abpout it? And where do you get off making such sweeping statements about "organized institutions" and thousands of years. Adduce your evidence. Point us to your book. We'll wait.

IOW, who the fu ck are you to pronounce such an opinion like holy writ?


And what is, "undue state coercion?" Taxation? In the view of tiresome free market fundamentalists like you, "undue state coercion" is any law of regulation. that keeps the boot of a rich man off the neck of a poor man.

It's like you just ignored the word "undue" as if it does't mean anything, when it clearly does. There are plenty examples of undue state coercion throughout history, the most egregious examples happening in the 20th century under socialist and fascist regimes. I am not against taxation or regulations - my career is entirely based on a system of federal regulations that FORCES creditors to take losses on unaffordable debts. I am against your socialist ideology which would direct the state to forcibly take other people's property in the name of "compassion for the poor" (actually vengeance against the perceived oppressors) and redistribute it to whoever your , or whichever group of ideologues seize power, sees fit.

Quote
And as for "capitalism recognizing the sinful nature of human," it's to laugh. Capitalism thrives upon the sinful nature of humans. To the extent it recognizes it all. Capitalism is completely indifferent to all human qualities aside from greed. Capitalism demands that we are all Ferengi. "Capitalist economies" promote only their own profits. It means money talks and, unless you have some to contribute, just shut the fu ck up and have the human decency to die, and die quickly.

Any system of organization which predicates itself on the ability of humans to achieve some utopian state of affairs from the top down FAILS to recognize the sinful nature of humans. Free markets recognize that nature in so far as they work from the bottom up. However I have never denied that the capitalist ideal can become utopian in its orientation if not kept in check.

Translation: I [Ashvin] got nothin'. The government has utterly no interest in human nature aside from its ability to choose winners who can profit from sin, or to tax it.

Quote
The Holy Mary, Mother of God herself, Margaret Thatcher, even famously said, "There's no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbors. Maybe. If there's anything left. And if we feel like it." And we all gathered the electronic campfire for s'mores and a chuckle when Dutch said, "Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem," which is the Lord's Prayer of free market fundamentalists. Which Christian principles is this in line with, aside from "Render unto Caesar?" Which we are taught Jesus meant as a call to look beyond the cares of this world, and which FMFs hear as, "Make sure Caesar gets his."

Utterly delusional

Other than criticizing Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, who I have no love for, I have no idea what point you are making here.]
Of course you totally ignored my points about a Constitutional Republic, not capitalism, being most in line with Christian principles, as it does the best job of factoring in our sinful nature, and the tendency of governments to become tyrannical over time. Your radical leftist utopia would shred the Constitution to pieces, as it does away with private property and any free speech or association that it views as a threat to its stated goals.

I'm supposed to infer your whatever about a "Constitutional republic? Wake the fu ck up, Ashvin. We live in the real world. We don't live in a "constitutional republic" any more than we live in a democracy. There are plenty of cutouts for those with the money tpo retain lobbyists and lawmakers to enact them into law. We live in a full bore oligarchy barreling its way to fascism, with the enthusiastic assistance of useful idiots like you who carry water for the worst people on the planet.

As much as we can all admire the readiness with which you snap to your studied pose of bewilderment, the point, is that the near 40-year class war on working people was initiated and led by these patron saints of free-market fundamentalism.  Your complaint of lack of understanding is an attempt to mask your dishonesty. No sale, fucko.

I could go on, but attempting to keep the formatting straight in this reply is almost as annoying as trying to talk sense to an ideologue. Go waste someone else's time.



Excellent post, Surly. As usual, you elucidate your arguments with irrefutable facts that only the most ideologically compromised would stubbornly disagree with and attempt to discredit with disingenuous sophistry.

  Capitalist Christianity is, like "Cruel Kindness", an Oxymoron

Sophists always expose themselves, no matter how clever they are at twisting words.

Leges         Sine    Moribus     Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

 

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