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Author Topic: Lost Cities and Civilizations  (Read 20037 times)

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Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2015, 08:00:06 pm »
Response to Dr. Ross's claim that Noah's Flood was local PART 2 of 2 PARTS

Also, the number of days this ark was out of sight of land implies a mind boggling amount of water for Noah, considering that he DID NOT live next to the ocean (if that had been the case, he would have built the ark next to the water) but lived up in the hills,  mountains or whatever. Even if the flood area was LOCAL, Dr. Ross is disingenuously lowballing its size by avoiding a DETAILED discussion of the time period the ark was on the waters. How convenient.

But this perfidy, hairsplitting and doubletalk is predicated on the premise, and Ashvin's premise too, that God does NOT do overkill. Yes He does. But it is a clever way to get Christians to nod their heads, isn't it? This charlatanry abuses the faith of Christians in a "GOOD" God by refusing to accept that there is no human way we can justify God's overkill.

It's God's universe, period. There is no need to baby talk and abuse the faith of people by making sanctimonious claims about what God's actions are limited by. But it sells books and keeps the simpletons happy. That does not make it right or logical.

See below a fascinating example of premise upon false premise leading to more and greater incorrect assumptions:

Further support for a regional, rather than global, cataclysm comes from consideration of God's command to Noah after the flood, the same command He had given to Adam and later gave to the people who built the tower of Babel: "Fill the earth."

Baloney. Dr. Ross cleverly leaves out a certain verb in the Noah account NOT present in the Adam account.

The fact that God repeated this command to Noah (and intervened dramatically to disperse the people of Babel's day) implies that the people of Noah's generation had not filled the earth.

God DID NOT "Repeat" the command to Noah that God gave to Adam. Mr. Ross takes ONE  VERSE out of context and throws in the Tower of Babel to confuse the issue. In fact, the Tower of Babel is OBVIOUSLY allegorical unless you think God was A) physically located at a distance from mankind down on the planet AND B)  concerned that humans could "get to him" with a united effort like a tower or human space flight. LOL! The last time I checked, humans are no threat to God. The Tower of Babel is an allegory, period. 

This view is consistent with the geographical place names recorded in the first nine chapters of Genesis. They all refer to localities either in or very close to Mesopotamia."

The first nine chapters of Genesis is a LOT of territory to cover with such a blanket statement about the consistency of his view. LONG before Moses sat down to write (more like rewrite from hand me down documents or oral traditions) Genesis, there is evidence of civilizations that came and went that God never told Moses beans about.

The Bible is trapped in a vice of chronology in this regard.  There no way that Biblical Scholars, who pay any attention to the chronology of the generations and the names, can handle a flood that happened 12,500 years ago.

That is why many fundamentalists, true to their rigid, all or nothing, personalities,  have to locked themselves in a Procrustean bed that denies verifiable science that PROVES the allegorical nature of several biblical passages.

This in no way denigrates from Biblical authority as a handbook for proper human behavior. Nevertheless, any crack in the scientific accuracy of the Biblical account is used by many to give the Bible, and God, the giant finger.

Dr. Ross is trying to straddle this arbitrary fence with his defense of the Bible and the Christian Faith. Good for him. But his cherry picking is the wrong way to go about it.

Ross left out the Noah quote from Jesus Christ. How convenient. The Kenotic school of thinking (see Kenosis -the relinquishment of divine attributes by Jesus Christ in becoming human ), rejected by many Christian scholars and accepted by many more today, is that J.C. shrunk his mental data base to Homo SAP size through the incarnation to the point of actually being a scientific ignoramous while He walked the earth. I agree that He did not have the full God picture of the universe; that would have made Him an ACTOR in THEATER, as RE has postulated. J.C. had doubts, and plenty of them. A fellow confident of kicking DEATH's ass by getting killed does not sweat blood.

But when He was talking about His return and Noah, He is making it rather clear what He KNEW and what HE DIDN'T KNOW (He didn't know when He was going to return but He knew Noah's flood affected all mankind throughout the world as His return would affect mankind throughout the world). Your logic that, "if the flood was local, then J.C. obviously believed it was local", applies equally if the flood was global.

Dr. Ross, makes broad statements based on the "macro" scientific evidence, only to devolve into the hairslpitting "micro" to support his broad claims. This is one of them:

The mechanisms that drive tectonic plate movements have extremely long time constants, so long that the effects of such a catastrophe would easily be measurable to this day. Since they are not, I conclude that the flood cannot be global.

Plate tectonics is a red herring wild goose chase that is irrelevant to geologic events within human history. Yeah, they happen slowly. But floods, particularly post ice age ones, happen rather quickly with a lot of help from a few large meteor fragments.

The evidence of global flooding has, in fact, been presented by credentialed geologists for over fifty years. Is it "easily" measured? Yes, but it is controversial to the mainstream uniformitarian geologic paradigm. Consequently, it has been rejected based on uniformitarian ideology, not lack of evidence. And spare me the "dating sediment layers" business. Dating a rock says NOTHING about whether that rock sediment was moved from here to there by a lot of water in a brief period. Sedimentation evidence, on the other hand, DOES.

According to uniformitarianism, all rock formations, including sedimentary rocks where fossils are found, formed over millions of years.

The fact that land AND MARINE fossils are found on land (not in the oceans) and fossilization mostly occurs in conditions of rapid sedimentation (which introduce anoxic conditions that preserve the shape and favor mineralization of the remains - small insects trapped in amber are an exception to this rule because amber also is an anoxic biochemical trap). IS evidence for global flood(s). Furthermore, it is NOT evidence, as mainstream geology claims, of "shallow seas covering the earth millions of years ago" BECAUSE fossils DO NOT FORM in sea water. The skeletons dissolve UNLESS anoxic conditions and biochemical bacterial decomposition is HALTED.

At the bottom of ALL oceans, no matter how deep OR ANOXIC, bacterial decomposition RECYCLES whale skeletons and anything else smaller. Please don't hairsplit with microscopic phytoplankton fossils and such. That is not evidence for ocean preservation of (above microscopic) marine fossils.

Fossilization is an ANOMALY! The biosphere is DESIGNED to recycle all parts of all life forms. Biological science accepts that! But mainstream geology does not want to admit that OBVIOUS fact BECAUSE their "geologic column" is their "BIBLE"!

The "body of geologic knowledge" Dr. Ross is referring to is selective and proven to be partly erroneous as well.

Dr. Ross obviously does not know or believe that a lot of water, carrying massive amounts of sediment and then receding within days or months, leaves multiple levels of sediment that give the FALSE uniformitarian school geologic paradigm view that it happened over millions of years.

But empirical proof of this is has already been obtained subsequent to the Mount Saint Helens eruption caused lake flood. The Grand Canyon strata is also evidence, hotly debated, that uniformitarians cannot counter with their dating methods. They found a mosquito with detectable, not mineralized blood in its gut. This was in a Grand Canyon area sedimentary rock strata allegedly over 16 million years old. The ROCKS may be that old, but a massive flood could have DEPOSITED them in sedimentary layers 12,500 years ago along with the mosquito. As usual, like the dino soft tissue, it's considered a mosquito that just happened to have preserved hemoglobin for 16 (or more) million years. It's a little too close to Jurassic Park for comfort IF that blood found in the gut from a feeding just before it got crushed was from a "you know what".  LOL

Since the effects of a catastrophic global flood 12,500, or so, ARE measurable to this day (good science is NEVER "easy"; it's always methodical and challenging), Dr. Ross CANNOT  assume or conclude that the flood was local. But he does anyway (see large "body" of "knowledge"). Dr. Ross's conclusion is based on the uniformitarian geology scientific consensus that is controversial, not on scientific evidence. 

The fact that fossils are found intermittently in sedimentary layers on land is evidence of (more than one) global flooding event. Dr. Ross is in denial of the FACT that fossilization is a FUNCTION of rapid sedimentation.

But there is more.

The Carbon-14 identified remains of humans in widely dispersed areas of the globe around the time (and before) of the catastrophic meteor fragment strikes 12,500 years ago argues for global flooding along with the 250 plus flood  "myths" of diverse cultures all over the planet. 

But let's talk Bible for the moment:

Below please find Genesis mentions of "the earth". I am certain that the author of Genesis was not changing his definition of "the earth", equating said expression to the entire planet sometimes and a local area at other times.

DR. Ross, and you, obviously do. I accuse Dr. Ross of using the cherry picking fallacious debating tactic. I accuse Ross of trying to stuff the local flood Procrustean bed into the Genesis account of a worldwide flood.

Putting aside the ancient world wide human remains Carbon-14 evidence, sunken cities pretty far from a local area of about 500 to 1000 miles around Turkey and the 12,500 year old meteor fragment catastrophe/possible breaching of massive underground, rock bound waters/massive volcanic eruptions/massive earthquakes/rapid glacial melt/giant tsunamis/flood for a moment, the Scripture is quite clear that the flood was worldwide.

If you accept that the flood was local, then when the Scripture describes the "whole heaven" in connection to the extent of the flood, I guess you will have to claim the "whole heaven" were local too! That is just one of several glaring logical inconsistencies in trying to squeeze  the "local flood" meme into Genesis. The Paul quote that Dr. Ross cherry picked is not evidence that the flood is local.

King James Bible
Chapter 7:
3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the [size=12]whole heaven[/size], were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
Chapter 8:
1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters assuaged;
3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.
7 And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth.
9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

Agelbert note: Please do not hairsplit with me here by bringing up the flight range of a dove (or a raven) as DEFINING the range of the flood.
That logic ignores all the other mentions of "the earth" quoted here.

Furthermore, any claim that this particular passage is "more significant" than the others, because it inserts the word "whole" in the phrase "the earth", completely ignores the fact that Ross is quite willing to equate the entire planet with "the earth" when he uses the "fill the earth" passage as alleged evidence that humanity AND the flood were area limited. Ross also cleverly forgets to mention the "replenish" verb in Genesis 9:1. How convenient. Ross CANNOT have it both ways.

13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.
14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.
17 Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.
19 Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.
22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
Chapter 9:
1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
11 And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

According the Scripture passages above, "THE EARTH" = 

But you are otherwise convinced, so I see no point in discussing it further. I maintain my stance that you and Dr. Ross are wrong. We will have to agree to disagree.

I am done with this thread. Any further posts about strange sh it by me will be on some other thread.  I don't think it is prudent to spend long periods analyzing articles submitted by an allegedly objective party that expects me to diligently do so (your posted verbiage far exceeds mine but you are rather quick to remind me when I miss something  )  while simultaneously the very same allegedly objective party calmly admits he sees no need to watch the videos I post.

Those videos actually save time. The one presented by Az (by  scientist Dr. Robert Schoch that documented Egyptian Sphinx age and ancient high tech with data, not speculation) was a good one too. Yes, one can't put quotes to debate the video claims one by one but that is easily taken care of by recording the time period in seconds a certain quote was made. That is not hard and is quite specific. It saves time typing as well.

But that is, unfortunately for me, not your style. So I end up reading long articles you post, your arguments to me and other posters, and you end up never watching my posted videos.
Here's another excellent and informative video by Dr. Robert Schoch. I'm sorry you won't watch it, Ashvin. It's a bit boring but really quite good. Yep, Schoch sells books too.

The Sphinx, Gobekli Tepe, Ancient Catastrophes Dr Robert Schoch

End of Part 2 od 2 Parts.

Response to Dr. Ross's claim that Noah's Flood was local PART 1 of 2 PARTS
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 05:50:10 pm by AGelbert »
Rob not the poor, because he is poor: neither oppress the afflicted in the gate:
For the Lord will plead their cause, and spoil the soul of those that spoiled them. Pr. 22:22-23


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