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Author Topic: Lost Cities and Civilizations  (Read 13169 times)

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AGelbert

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Re: Lost Cities and Civilizations
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2015, 06:07:00 pm »
Ashvin,  Let me get his straight. You think that JESUS CHRIST was referring to a LOCAL flood when he was discussing Noah and the Ark?

I think it's a valid interpretation of the Genesis account and scientifically more plausible than a global one. If it is in fact the CORRECT interpretation, then it's obviously the one Jesus would have held too.

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Do you want the Gospels in Greek (as supposedly they were originally written in) and the old testament in Aramaic, Hebrew and whatever to accept that JESUS was raised in the JEWISH faith and read and beleived the Scriptures that do not say BEANS about the flood and Noah being allegorical, a parable, some children's scary story or a warning? Your NON-answer is absolutely BREATHTAKING!

I'm having a hard time believing that you are having such a hard time understanding what I'm saying. My posts have made clear that I do NOT believe it was allegorical, a parable or any other literary device. So I don't know why you keep mentioning those things.

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Fast forward to Mathew 24:37-39. Here the overall context is His RETURN when He won't be Mr. Nice Guy. He is using a historical reference (Noah, the ark and the flood that drowned every non-aquatic creature on EARTH, according to the scripture (the date it happened is not the issue, Ashvin - it's WHETHER it happened or not on a global scale that IS the issue AND the reason I said anybody claiming J.C. did not believe in global flood is mistaken.).

Where does it say "every non-aquatic creature"?

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J.C. is predicting what some Homo SAP civilizational conditions when He RETURNS. It's a prophecy. It's a rather IMPORTANT prophecy, is it not? Do you HONESTLY think Jesus Christ  would use a LOCAL FLOOD (where Noah and family got warned and survived while the bad people in a limited area drown)  comparison to HIS RETURN to JUDGE the EARTH?

Do you think He was planning to drop in on the same area as that LOCAL FLOOD and to hell with the rest of the planet?

Perhaps I am not understanding you, Ashvin. Would you please clarify your position on Noah and the extent of the flood? GO was kind enough to state right out that he thought it was a parable. He considered it a myth. He may still consider it a myth but he promises to ponder the issue. There is an honest response. Is that your opinion too?

Yes, you are misunderstanding me, and no that's not my opinion.

We BOTH agree that the Flood was universal (and that Jesus was talking about a literal, universal Flood), i.e. it wiped out ALL of humanity except Noah and his family. My position is that ALL of humanity could have been confined to a limited portion of the Earth at the time the Flood occurred. This position would assume that Adam & Eve and their descendants up to Noah didn't make it too far from Eden before the Flood came.

(this is the position held by Hugh Ross and others at Reasons to Believe - www.reasons.org)

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And by the way, I'm surprised you did not immediately point out to GO that "image and likeness" of God has absolutely nothing to do with our biology and everything to do with our spirit. Or do YOU labor under the erroneous view that our bodies are what was made in the "image and likeness" of God too?

I think GO and I both say it is about human spirit, NOT biology. But GO's point seemed to be that it would be weird for God to create humans in his image, but also more advanced and intelligent beings who are not in his image. My point was this would only be weird if the beings were fallen, since Jesus would be incarnated on at least one other planet as another being (not human) for their redemption. If they are not fallen, then it's not so weird (theologically), since we already accept the existence of unfallen angels who are probably more intelligent than we are.

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Back to Jesus Christ, we have enough trouble in forums like this to get people to believe Jesus Christ Himself came even the FIRST TIME, never mind returning! Look at all the hoops you jumped through when that article about J.C. being a myth was dropped here by Da godfader for fun and jollies over a year ago. I was so disgusted with it I could not bring myself even to comment on it. I am indebted to you for fighting the good fight then.

But now I'm very unsatisfied with your response about J.C. and Matthew 24:37-39. J.C. was not whistling Dixie, to put it mildly. He was talking about the most important event in Church Prophetic Teaching History. You CANNOT just gloss over that and concentrate on the cross, salvation and leave it at that. The Early Church got through those awful times with help from the Holy Spirit, sure. But the HOPE of His RETURN was one of the main forces in keeping the early Christians united.

That biblical passage is a HUGE deal! I caution you, JD and GO and any other believers reading this, to not pretend Jesus Christ was making an "unimportant" comparison between Noah's life saving ark and Jesus Christ's return.

Of course. I pointed out this same HUGE comparison to GO back when he still believed it was allegory, and I'm pretty sure that's why he decided to treat it more literally. The comparison rests in the LITERAL judgments of sin/evil which affect ALL of humanity, and the "Ark" (Jesus Christ) which offers us salvation. I hope my position is more clear to you now.

I also have a question - do you believe God would wipe out Arctic polar bears or penguins in Antarctica, even though they would have no interaction with humanity at the time of the Flood? That seems like overkill to me...

Ashvin,
I stand corrected. I see that you believe humanity was limited to the area around where Noah lived. Then, of course, the flood would not need to be world wide.

Of course the account of Noah does not say that non-aquatic animals were singled out for destruction; that's a logical conclusion a biblical researcher I read about in the 1980's reached when he studied the Noah's Ark and what types of life forms (all surface air breathers) were in it. Quite frankly, that's a no-brainer. But that researcher went on and on about seeds surviving so no seeds needed to be carried, dormant insects, insect eggs and pods that float (and so on). It wasn't necessary for all that to be spelled out in Scripture, was it?

As to the polar bears and penguins, both species would survive in a worldwide flood even though they are air breathers because they hang around and feed on ice flows. But the gist of your question is not about polar bears and penguins; it's about overkill. I get it.

So let me address it. You are the Biblical Scholar, not me. You are the one that has discussed the curse now and then from Adam on down. I have absolutely no sympathy for God's decision to curse all of life because Adam was disobedient.

I'm right there with WHD in being highly disgusted with the idea that a just God would do such a thing. I do not get it. I do not understand it. But just like all of nature was cursed because of whatever actually happened (I DO think the garden of Eden is 100% allegorical!) a long time ago between our species and God, the death of millions of totally innocent animals in the flood is a given that I accept.

So yeah, I believe the flood was worldwide and covered all the mountain tops (as the Scripture says). There are marine fossil shells found in the highest of mountains. The scientists claim that is because the mountains got pushed up. Some of them, sure. But marine fossils on mountains are ubiquitous all over the planet. And Ashvin, there is a lot more evidence, hard evidence, of a geologically recent worldwide flood than that.

But let us assume that there is NO EVIDENCE and the Bible is our only reference. Let us assume that God did some major overkill during Noah's flood. There is no question that the animal pairs that got lucky and were chosen to ride the boat equates to a death sentence for the numerous representatives of their species that were slated to drown. Without even considering polar bears or penguins, we are already into overkill=unjust God territory, are we not? We are not talking about the difference between a Divine misdemeanor and a felony. God is either 100% just or He is not God, right? Right.

So where do these apparently calloused and cruel Divine death sentences on innocent animals, never mind severely narrowing the gene pool, leave us? Shall we give the finger to the God of the Bible? Shall we say all religion is baloney? Shall we say J.C. did not know His ass from a hole in the ground? Not me. Only God has the authority to judge God.

Shall we say that it is obvious that there is no God and we are all evolved pond scum doing a Rorschach exercise on what we see in nature by projecting our feverish imaginations on why this, that and the other happened to try to make some sense or order where there actually is no order or sense? Are we just making it up as we go along because of our 'evolutionary advantage' (used to quickly discern threats, particularly threatening faces) called Pareidolia?

Pareidolia (/pærɨˈdoʊliə/ parr-i-DOH-lee-ə) is a psychological phenomenon involving a vague and random stimulus (often an image or sound) being perceived as significant.

I used to listen to a Pastor called J. Vernon McGee. He would respond to questions of that nature by saying that it's God's universe. What seems unjust as all hell to us has some purpose that we cannot fathom because of our limitations as humans.

The unbelievers call that wishful or magical thinking. I don't believe it is. It's a recognition that trying to logically countenance each and every action that God takes that involves causing the physical death of his creations as "good", only if it is limited to the guilty party (Homo SAP), is a quixotic effort.

Towards the end of His earthly ministry, J.C. said something that has always struck me as evidence that the Bible is VERY limited in what knowledge it has imparted to Homo SAPS on what goes on and why.

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John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

IOW, He has given them the basic stuff. The other info is WAY OUT there, more complex, more voluminous and more difficult to believe. We know very little about this universe.

My belief is that there was a worldwide flood (at least one). My evidence is the 12,500 year old catastrophe that scientists have found evidence for about some LARGE meteor fragments hitting the planet mostly in North America and triggering massive, rapid melting.

I believe that carved the Grand Canyon in decades, not millions of years, along with wiping out some very advanced civilizations. I believe THAT was Noah's flood. I think Jesus Christ knew that and a whole lot more He did not tell us.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 12:59:14 am by AGelbert »
Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life. Pr. 13:12

 

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