Eddie said:
Ah, we've gotten around to the core message. I read you loud and clear Cap'n.
What does "Love thine enemies" mean to you? What specific behavior is involved? That's where Palloy misses the boat when he comes down so hard on me. You're missing it too.
To me it doesn't mean that I can literally make myself instantly treat an adversary like my brother. There's a reason somebody is my adversary. It didn't happen in a vacuum. They are my adversary because they did something to me, or are causing me some kind of grief. They're maybe still doing it.
But "love thine enemies" means I need to give them a big hug the next time I see them and say, "Hey, you've been a major prick, but I love you cuz Jesus sez"......
I doubt the real capacity for most humans to do that if they were REALLY trying. It isn't likely to ever happen on a Federation planet.
"Love thine enemies", to me means something different from that..
To me, love thine enemies extends to putting myself in the enemies' place and trying realize maybe they have legitimate reasons for whatever they're doing that negatively impacts me. Understanding that they're fallible and human and that I'm not perfect, and maybe I should try to see it from their side.
THAT, I can do. And I do. Who says I don't?
The scripture does not indicate this person is not going to be my enemy anymore.
--------------------------------------
"Turn the other cheek." That one has several possible meanings, according which religious authority you accept, actually. Ancient metaphors are easily misunderstood. Especially in translation from dead languages. Blessed are the cheese makers.
You ones all see things black and white. It's all so simple. Must be nice
That's a rather harsh judgement, sir. I have the Hebrew Greek study bible and get HEAVY into the orignial words to see if I can figure out the cultural mindset of the writer at the time. Yes, GOOD and EVIL are 100% black and white to me. That is irrelevant to proper interpretation of Scripture and does not interfere with my analytical mental faculties. For example, most "Christians" believe that the Commandment to "Honor thy father and thy mother" means you must obey their every wish. Obedience has NOTHING to do with that. As Jesus made rather clear, it's about taking economic and physical care of your parents in their old age. You and I know that children were (and in some places still are) the social security and retirement pension for humans back then. Jesus was accutely aware of how hypocrites mistreated their aged parents while claiming to be men of God. He called them out on it and many other examples of Mammon worshipping evil behavior.
But, people who find it uncomfortable to get past 1st grade Sunday school (i.e. most American "Christians") cannot be bothered with such realities. Providing sustenance for aged parents is TOTALLY different from observing obedience to their wishes. The "Honor" in that Commandment is where the word "Honorarium" came from that the lawyers came up with to fleece their clients.
As to your other points, I basically agree. The point of contention you and I have has to do with the source of our decision making mental and spiritual software, not what good Christian behavior is.
My Christianity has been tainted by lots of subversive influences. Tantra. Taoism. Astrology. Past Lives. Karma. Dharma. LSD. Peyote. Mushrooms. Meditation.
All kinds of unsubstantiated hocus pocus. I'm a spiritual sponge. I soak it all up and when I dry out there is a little bit of all of it still inside me. It is as it is supposed to be. That's my faith.
I have no hope of influencing you in any positive way, or of convincing you that my belief system has any merit, or that anything in the world of spirituality is correct besides your limited personal interpretation of Jesus's message as perceived by a nosebleed Type One.
But I won't willingly stand by and listen to you badmouth me. You aren't qualified to do that, and I won't allow it.
You don't hold the moral high ground here that you erroneously assume that you do. You have your own work to do, and it's late in the game for you. You should worry less about my **** and more about your own ****.
This is the only comment I'll make on this thread, because it is prima facie absurd. Reminds me of the old rock tune with the lyric,
"My girl is red hot, your girl ain't doodle squat..." except substitute "God" for "girl." A POV underpinning every pointless squabble on the face of the earth.
This resonated for me:
I'm a spiritual sponge. I soak it all up and when I dry out there is a little bit of all of it still inside me. It is as it is supposed to be. That's my faith.
Our faith tempered by experience makes us who we are. Seems self-evident to me.
Not sure I get your POV either. I didn't mean it the way you took it, that's for sure. If I had to rephrase what I meant, it would be :
"I have my own belief system. It's a hodge-podge made up of many influences. But it's mine, it's legitimate, and I won't listen to some really ignorant and judgmental jerk try to take it apart.
Better?
You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but Surly's point is 100% valid in regard to this subject. I think what Surly is trying to say is as follows:
When discussing the term, "Christianity", different people get a totally different picture in their heads. For example, a fighter pilot gets a picture of a fighter plane when he hears the word, "F16".
But, a photographer gets a totally different picture in his head when he hears the word, "F16".
All that said, you and I pretty much understand each other. I think that Works without Faith are as empty as Faith without Works. You think that's for the guilt ridden.
I don't understand your hangup with guilt. For the life of me, I don't feel any particular guilt for having a fallen nature. I was born with it. You and Yogananda, however, eschew all that "fallen nature" business. Sir, that is so basically UNChristian it boggles the mind that anyone could reject the Biblical teachings about human fallen nature, the ONLY reason Christ had to die for us, and claim to be Christian.
Nevertheless, I understand that your "F16" is rather different from my F16. When we die, that issue will be cleared up permanently.
The Book of James makes it rather clear that the cornerstone of Christianity is Faith, even before the admonition that good works MUST accompany Christian Faith. Good works come forth only if the person actually lives their Faith.
Good Works without Christian Faith are laudable, but they are not in any way related to Chritianity.
Verse 18 is often taken out of context to make the case that the bottom Christian line is WORKS, as many New Age folks claim. Capter 2: Verse 22 begins to clear that up. Then, verse 24 makes it crystal clear that Faith (see: "only") is a
sine qua non Christian precondition to Good Chrisitian Works.
The following is
sine qua non to being a Christian (Agelbert's F16 WITHOUT QUOTES
):
James 2:14-26 New King James Version (NKJV)
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
To Agent Graves:Thank you for changing your icon.
Now I feel free to read your posts.
I am certain you view my stuffed shirt prude outlook as a weakness. You are right. I do what I can. Welcome to the Doomstead Diner. Here you will have a front row seat on the collapse of industrial civilization. Most of us here feel it is baked in (pun intended
).
RE,
You know that I hunger and thirst for justice as much as anybody else. I have skills that make me a very, very potentially dangerous person. As to being as evil as you can possibly be, I probably take the prize here for past thoughts that, thankfully, I never had the opportunity to carry out. Jesus said that if you THINK approvingly and willfully of doing something (e.g. adultery) you have already committed that sin.
Well, sin covers a lot of behavioral ground. As an Intelligence Operations Specialist, while in training at Lowry AFB, Colorado in 1967, I prepared a bombing run as an exercise to destroy two major airfields in Hanoi, Noth Vietnam. I went to Bombing Encyclopedia (a LARGE document prepared by the USAF with the radar signature of EVERY CITY in the world - including US cities
) and looked up the included nuclear weapon yield. After doing some math, I realized that two nukes with smaller yelds would do more damage than one big one. Besides, B52s could carry the slightly smaller ones easier. If that mission had taken place, I would have shared the responsibility for killing over one million people plus animals and foliage, followed by horrendous misery and death for hundreds of thousands others within a year or so. Yeah, it was just an exercise. BUT, I can tell you right now I would have carried it out without batting a BRAINWASHED eyelid.
Paul ain't got nuttin' on me. I am the CHIEF among sinners. So, I have a LOT to be grateful for by Jesus Christ coming into my life. I know how to fly the big jets too. I am confident that I will never use my dastardly skills to kill. But you never know. Being a Christian is a daily struggle, not for the feint of heart. I am NOT a nice guy. My good works behavior and willingness to forego revenge for the evil visited on me an many fellow humans for Christ is the result of God's grace, PERIOD.
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