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Author Topic: End Times according to the Judeo Christian Bible  (Read 325 times)

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AGelbert

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Eddie: And Palloy doesn't get why I'm a bit conflicted by the current flavor of Christianity in the world.

That is because you call them Christians, instead of "Christians", and you call yourself Christian as well, but you consider yourself different from them.  So it is very hard to understand what you mean.

All I am saying is "highest duty is to myself and my family" is NOT a Christian saying, it is a Bernaysian saying used by rich American fake Christians to justify their selfish deeds.


I said I was a Christian. I didn't say I was Jesus Christ.

Jesus said to "love your neighbor as yourself".

Neighbor. Get that, Commandante?

Like Jesus described, I practice my Christianity locally. When the die-off comes, if I'm still around, I expect I'll have plenty of opportunities to be a good Christian.

He didn't say:

"Seize the means of production, form a collective, and divide the proceeds so that the greatest good is accomplished for the greatest number."

or

"Blow up the Parliament with a keg of gunpowder to protest the oppression of the masses."


He did say (when pressed by some guys that remind me of you) "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."

I never said that putting myself and my family ahead of all the miserable starving people in the world was a Christian saying. It's the most simple law there is. The law of the jungle. If you don't think you're controlled by that law, you're crazy.


“On the day of the hunt I came to know in the slick center of my bones this one thing; all animals kill to survive, and we are animals. The lion kills the baboon, the baboon kills fat grasshoppers. The elephant tears up living trees, dragging their precious roots from the dirt they love....And we, even if we had no meat or even grass to gnaw, still boil our water to kill the invisible creatures that would like to kill us first. And swallow quinine pills. The death of something living is the price of our own survival, and we pay it again and again. We have no choice. It is the one solemn promise every life on earth is born and bound to keep.”


 


Eddie, you were raised in Texas with Christian doctrine and I was raised in Kansas with serious (walk the talk, not like most Catholics) Catholic doctrine.

Later on I went to an evangelical Christian church, learned sound doctrine, and observed while almost nobody followed it. They threw me out.  ;D
 
All of that is water under the bridge. You and I have seen first hand thoughout our lives how people cherry pick portions of the Gospel to suit their greed and their selfish needs.

That IS the issue with Chritianity. That is what causes so many people to walk away from these so-called "Christian" churches AND keeps a lot of Catholics in the fold, so to speak, because Catholicism focuses on the "we are all sinners and that's life" convenient cop out for egregiously routine sinful behavior with no attempt whatsoever to follow Chistian ethics, except with lip service.

Also, the nominal "Christian" evangelicals who claim they can party because it's all "under the blood" are in the exact same category of reprobates as most Catholics are.

What this teaching of Jesus Christ is all about, and as you know sticks in most people's craw, is that, without God's grace through the Holy spirit, you cannot walk the Christian talk.

Some people throw up their hands and say it is victim psychology and anyone with a minimum of pride and two brain cells to rub together should reject Christianity.

Yep, most people do that. And they DO THAT because human society celebrates the strength of human will, resolve, fortitude, and so on. It's important to have those qualities, but they are a stumblig block if they are the foundation of a person's personality. They MUST be secondary in the true Christian.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ makes it crystal clear that your will is not worth a tinker's damn. THAT really torques a lot of people who feel they can control their behavior and are ethical to the core. Well, they are full of pride, not ethics. They are fooling themselves (and a lot of other people too).

As humans, we can only judge the veracity or not of what people say they are with what they do. And even that is not totally reliable because sometimes people have a bad day and abuse those around them. So, we just try to get a general track record of what they do as it lines up, or not, with what they say.

BUT, we are NOT God. The instant we put ourselves in that role, as too many here routinely do, we are not going to be objective about what sinful behavior is and what it is not simply because God, by definition, DOES NOT SIN. At that point the person who fancies himself to "have the big picture", will use every bit of pretzel logic in existence from Machiavelli to Orwell to justify whatever he wants to do and condemn whoever he conveniently wants to condemn.

That's idolatry of the self. That is what most "Christians" in the USA DO. That is what atheist DO. That is what this country is all about! Christianity is a joke to most "Christians".

What God will do with this mess is His problem. My categorical imperative (apologies to Kant  ;D) as a Christian is to ask, each and every day, NOT what God can do for me, but what God wants me to do for Him. The INSTANT that God is not in the driver's seat of my decision making software, I am NOT a Christian, PERIOD.
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AGelbert

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Eddie, with all due respect, I think your definition of a nominal Christian requires quotes around the word "Christian".

A Christian does NOT EVER make money and economic prosperity his goal in life (See: SEEK YE FIRST THE KINGDOM OF GOD, and so on).

A Christian does NOT EVER support government action that murders foreigners in their lands for corporate profit.

A Christian does NOT EVER consider himself better than any other human being, of whatever religion or culture or skin color.

If you think a person can be a Christian and not behave as I just described, then you are confusing those reprobates who wear the label of "Christian" as a con to take people for a ride with a real Christian.
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AGelbert

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US barking up the wrong trade tree

And therein lies the cruelest twist of all. China is the US' low-cost provider of imported consumer goods. The Trump 🦀 deal would shift the Chinese piece of the US' multilateral imbalance to higher-cost imports from elsewhere - the functional equivalent of a tax hike on US families. As Hoover's ghost might ask, what's so great about that?


What many Trump apologists fail to note is that NOTHING that Trump does is for the good of the "'Murkin pee-pul." It is for the good of Trump, his immediate family and his criminal grift and money-laundering enterprise. Cabinet members and hangers-on get to grab as much as they can for as long as they can as long as the window  remains open, and devil take the hindmost. The Russia investigation notwithstanding, a not corrupt Congress would have already impeached and convicted Trump, for emoluments clause violations alone. The scale of the corruption is truly staggering, making the Grant and Harding administrations look like so many convent devotees.

The rich will be just fine, as the rich are always fine. It is Trump's supporters who will find themselves further dispossessed and broke, and who will be encouraged to take out their ire on someone younger, browner, poorer. Fleece the rubes: Wash, rinse, repeat. It always works.
Yeah, I know. Here come the choruses of "Both-sides-do-it," "whataboutism," "but-her-emails," and "****."


Well said.

However, I think the rich backers of Trump are effectively taking a long walk off a short pier. Yes, we will all go down together. Life on Earth is aptly named the valley of tears.

I am looking forward to life after this life.

Some may say that is a defeatist attitude. I say, as a student of climate science and human history, the interminable hostility of greedy humans to each other and the continued, willful insane destruction of the biosphere 'seed corn' that allows human existence are behavioral problems can only be fixed by God modifying human nature so we ALL think altruistically, instead of greedily.

I don't see Him doing that any time soon. 





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AGelbert

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Eddie, you were raised in Texas with Christian doctrine and I was raised in Kansas with serious (walk the talk, not like most Catholics) Catholic doctrine.

Later on I went to an evangelical Christian church, learned sound doctrine, and observed while almost nobody followed it. They threw me out.  ;D
 
All of that is water under the bridge. You and I have seen first hand thoughout our lives how people cherry pick portions of the Gospel to suit their greed and their selfish needs.

That IS the issue with Chritianity. That is what causes so many people to walk away from these so-called "Christian" churches AND keeps a lot of Catholics in the fold, so to speak, because Catholicism focuses on the "we are all sinners and that's life" convenient cop out for egregiously routine sinful behavior with no attempt whatsoever to follow Chistian ethics, except with lip service.

Also, the nominal "Christian" evangelicals who claim they can party because it's all "under the blood" are in the exact same category of reprobates as most Catholics are.

What this teaching of Jesus Christ is all about, and as you know sticks in most people's craw, is that, without God's grace through the Holy spirit, you cannot walk the Christian talk.

Some people throw up their hands and say it is victim psychology and anyone with a minimum of pride and two brain cells to rub together should reject Christianity.

Yep, most people do that. And they DO THAT because human society celebrates the strength of human will, resolve, fortitude, and so on. It's important to have those qualities, but they are a stumblig block if they are the foundation of a person's personality. They MUST be secondary in the true Christian.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ makes it crystal clear that your will is not worth a tinker's damn. THAT really torques a lot of people who feel they can control their behavior and are ethical to the core. Well, they are full of pride, not ethics. They are fooling themselves (and a lot of other people too).

As humans, we can only judge the veracity or not of what people say they are with what they do. And even that is not totally reliable because sometimes people have a bad day and abuse those around them. So, we just try to get a general track record of what they do as it lines up, or not, with what they say.

BUT, we are NOT God. The instant we put ourselves in that role, as too many here routinely do, we are not going to be objective about what sinful behavior is and what it is not simply because God, by definition, DOES NOT SIN. At that point the person who fancies himself to "have the big picture", will use every bit of pretzel logic in existence from Machiavelli to Orwell to justify whatever he wants to do and condemn whoever he conveniently wants to condemn.

That's idolatry of the self. That is what most "Christians" in the USA DO. That is what atheist DO. That is what this country is all about! Christianity is a joke to most "Christians".

What God will do with this mess is His problem. My categorical imperative (apologies to Kant  ;D) as a Christian is to ask, each and every day, NOT what God can do for me, but what God wants me to do for Him. The INSTANT that God is not in the driver's seat of my decision making software, I am NOT a Christian, PERIOD.


My best understanding of Jesus I gained not from Texas doctrine, but from reading Yogananda, who completely GOT Jesus, imho. He was so interested in trying to explain Jesus to Americans that he wrote two whole books about it, neither of whom ever got much attention.




Was Yogananda a Christian? Specifically, did Yogananda believe that Jesus Christ was, and is, God? If not, Yogananda was focusing on the teachings, not the supernatural nature of grace and the action of the Holy Spirit. That is, again, the belief that humans can actually follow Christ's teachings by the force of their own "Godlike" will. Did Yogananda believe in Karma? Karma is a replacement for God's answer to sin without God. That is, quite frankly, a blasphemy if associated with Chritianity or Jesus Christ.

Gandhi, like you, said he liked Christianity (i.e. SOME, not all, of Christ's teachings) but wasn't too impressed with the unChristian behavior of Christians.

I respectfully, but totally, disagree with your definition of Christianity. Knarf, the Bhuddist, is quite Christian in his behavior towards fellow humans and the life forms around him. That does not make him a Christian.

Your behavior towards your neighbors is ethical and laudable, but that does not make you a Christian. I am sure Yogananda, if he lives still, is a principled human with laudable behavior. But as long he claims Jesus was not God, Yogonanda, like Gandhi, Knarf and you, is not a Christian. Monotheism is not negotiable in Christianity.
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AGelbert

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Christianity in the FSoA is defined by its Spokesmodels.


RE

They wear the label, but they need to be called "Christians", not Christians. There is NOTHING about those con artist front men for empire murder and mayhem that is Christian in ANY WAY!

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AGelbert

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Well said.

However, I think the rich backers of Trump are effectively taking a long walk off a short pier. Yes, we will all go down together. Life on Earth is aptly named the valley of tears.

I am looking forward to life after this life.

Some may say that is a defeatist attitude. I say, as a student of climate science and human history, the interminable hostility of greedy humans to each other and the continued, willful insane destruction of the biosphere 'seed corn' that allows human existence are behavioral problems can only be fixed by God modifying human nature so we ALL think altruistically, instead of greedily.

I don't see Him doing that any time soon.
 


I quite agree. WE are the pillow the rich will land on which the entire rotten edifice falls down.


That will be a mighty hard pillow.  The problem for the Rich is they won't be Rich after a collapse of the monetary system.

RE


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AGelbert

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I'm not sure you've actually heard my definition of Christianity. ... Profession of faith, Confession of sins, baptism of some sort.

That's a pretty unusual set of rituals.  As a non-Christian (baptised at birth) it is hard to take you to task over your definition of what Christianity is, but surely it has got to have something to do with believing in the rightness of what Jesus preached - "love your enemies as much as yourself", "turn the other cheek" and not to put yourself first all the time. Given you think my hermit lifestyle is proof of something bad (not sure quite what) could you please explain that in plain language without citing someone else, without riddles, and without Amerikan slang.

Well, I think Palloy has hit the semantic nail right on the head. I rarely agree with him, but he is right here.

Eddie, I am curious. Do you actually think the USA was EVER a Christian country? The Founding Fathers were deists, NOT Christians. Their pattern for government was the Roman Republic of the Roman Empire. They were imperialists from the word go. This country's beliefs are, and always have been, based on MIGHT EQUALS RIGHT, PERIOD.

Yes, the US is very much a Christian country and always has been.

The Founding Fathers were more educated, philosophically oriented, and generally perhaps a bit more enlightened than the rank and file citizens of the early days. We were greatly influenced by all the splinter group protestant religions that arose in Europe and then were brought here by those looking for a place to practice their various sectarian brands of Christianity without interference from the State.

They were mostly alike in that they were the high-guilt, sins-of-the-father-visited-on-the-son brand of hell-fire and damnation Christianity.

America forever is stained with the stiff-necked, self-righteous dogma of the Puritans. It is the Puritans I blame for much of what is wrong with our culture.


Guilt is the LAST thing Americans, especially the Founding Exploiters, have ever been known for. A people that wallow in guilt don't calmly go about conning the natives until they get enough power and population to kill them off, Eddie. Might equals Right is NOT Christian doctrine. NO, this country was never Christian in any way, shape or form, just like the Catholic church was never a Christian organization. So, I will disagree with you totally on that. This country is pagan to the core. The "Christian" thing was always a clever fig leaf to cover the ruthless greed of the elites AND the citizenry.

My best understanding of Jesus I gained not from Texas doctrine, but from reading Yogananda, who completely GOT Jesus, imho. He was so interested in trying to explain Jesus to Americans that he wrote two whole books about it, neither of whom ever got much attention.

Was Yogananda a Christian? Specifically, did Yogananda believe that Jesus Christ was, and is, God? If not, Yogananda was focusing on the teachings, not the supernatural nature of grace and the action of the Holy Spirit. That is, again, the belief that humans can actually follow Christ's teachings by the force of their own "Godlike" will. Did Yogananda believe in Karma? Karma is a replacement for God's answer to sin without God. That is, quite frankly, a blasphemy if associated with Chritianity or Jesus Christ.

Gandhi, like you, said he liked Christianity (i.e. SOME, not all, of Christ's teachings) but wasn't too impressed with the unChristian behavior of Christians.

I respectfully, but totally, disagree with your definition of Christianity. Knarf, the Bhuddist, is quite Christian in his behavior towards fellow humans and the life forms around him. That does not make him a Christian.

Your behavior towards your neighbors is ethical and laudable, but that does not make you a Christian. I am sure Yogananda, if he lives still, is a principled human with laudable behavior. But as long he claims Jesus was not God, Yogonanda, like Gandhi, Knarf and you, is not a Christian. Monotheism is not negotiable in Christianity.

Nice conversation and no hard feelings about a single thing on my part. I hope I didn't say anything you found offensive. I understand and respect your brand of Christian faith. And your works are substantial and speak for themselves.

Yogananda talked a lot about what he called Christ Consciousness. I'm not sure I can explain that very succinctly, although it makes sense to me.

I can't really say that I think he was a Christian... by your measure and by the New Testament, no, I don't think he was a Christian.

I'm pretty sure he did not ever undergo a baptism and confess his sins and accept Christ as I was taught was necessary.

Did he give his life to God? Yes. He very much did that. I recommend his autobiography. Steve Jobs, btw, was said to have given away many, many  copies to people, as he thought it was the most important book people could ever read.

I'm not sure you've actually heard my definition of Christianity. In my post above I repeated what many, many Christian ministers have said. Not just the church I grew up in, which was very fundie, but also every one of the other Christian churches I ever sat through a sermon in, which is quite a few. All protestant, however. They all agreed on the basics. Profession of faith, Confession of sins, baptism of some sort.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think just going through the motions means much. I agree that it does not. Many "Christians" are going through the motions. And Palloy is right, that many of them are brainwashed. But it isn't just TV. They're brainwashed in church too. That has become prevalent, unfortunately.


I've read quite a bit about "Christ consciousness". You will probably disagree, but it is based on a person using their OWN WILL to DO Christ and/or to "channel" the "ascended master" thing that Jesus has allegedly achieved. That does involve spiritual experience, but it is not the Holy Spirit doing the action in the person. So, any true Christian must reject it.

Sorry to be so frank, but, I was exposed to a lot of the New Age stuff before I finally gave myself to Christ. I am no spring chicken. I went through the whole reincarnation belief structure too and read several books about this amazingly logical karmic multi-life structure. I was attracted by the apparent balance  (i.e. hope for justice for all). Unfortuantely, the whole ball of metaphysical wax there revolves around the SELF, not God. It is 100% against everything that Christ taught.

The brainwashing done in the "Christian" churches, since (and long before) this country began, was, and is, exclusively for the purpose of suckering the rubes to conflate the National Flag with God so they will be willing to die for empire in wars. It has ZIP to do with Christianity.

The "hell and damantion" thing IS Christian, whether you and I and Yogananda like it or not. ;)  BUT, if that pack of lying preachers had actually believed in Hell and Damnation as punishment for evil behavior, they would not have trained Americans to love money and do whatever necessary, including "God" approved murder and mayhem in other countries, to GET IT!

Sure, every other country from Spain to England to France to Italy to Russia to Germany (e.g. Gott Mit Uns!) has pulled the same con on their people. That does NOT make it Christian. That just proves that religion was hijacked in the propaganda service of the warmongering state! The problem is the STATE, not the Christian Faith.

You are fond of lambasting that war promoting propaganda effort everywhere else but you think it is some kind of simple con game to get money out of people in the "Christian" churches? It goes WAY BEYOND THAT! And, you know it. Lambast away at those Texas megachurches! They deserve to be burned to the ground and every crooked "Christian" pastor forced to give back all the money they conned out of the rubes. All I ask is that you use quotes around the word "Christian" when you speak of those devils.

Eddie, I don't have a "brand" of Christianity. You are free to call it that but I hasten to add that the basic tenets of the Christian Faith require worshipping God. That's the one, the only, God. That is not some monist "we are all one and we are actually worshipping ourselves" concept. Monism is basphemy.

My major complaint with these discussions with you is that you refuse to make a distinction between Christians and "Christians" behaviorwise, never mind the Heinz 57 number of excuses for "Christianity" out there. You claim this fellow Yogananda really understood Jesus. Well, I am CERTAIN that he rejected absolutely everything Jesus Christ said about Hell and Damnation. A person can't claim to know Jesus Christ and reject His rather frequent warnings of "outer darkness" and such for those who rejected His teachings by replacing Divine punishment with some Karma mechanism. That's just more cherry picking the Gospel for convenience.

Yogananda never served God if he believed in Karma, no matter how righteous his behavior was. Works without Faith are as empty as Faith without Works.

We can go back and forth forever defining either the Christian TALK (doctrine, rituals, etc.) and/or the Christian WALK (respect for our neighbors and daily submission to God's will through prayer) but it is clear that I can never convince you that the WALK MUST accompany the TALK for a person to be a Christian. 

So, believe what you will. May God guide your thoughts, words and deeds, Amen.
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AGelbert

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Eddie said:
Quote
Ah, we've gotten around to the core message. I read you loud and clear Cap'n.

What does "Love thine enemies" mean to you?  What specific behavior is involved? That's where Palloy misses the boat when he comes down so hard on me. You're missing it too.

To me it doesn't mean that I can literally make myself instantly treat an adversary like my brother. There's a reason somebody is my adversary. It didn't happen in a vacuum. They are my adversary because they did something to me, or are causing me some kind of grief. They're maybe still doing it.

But "love thine enemies" means I need to give them a big hug the next time I see them and say, "Hey, you've been a major prick, but I love you cuz Jesus sez"......

I doubt the real capacity for most humans to do that if they were REALLY trying. It isn't likely to ever happen on a Federation planet.

"Love thine enemies", to me means something different from that..

To me, love thine enemies extends to putting myself in the enemies' place and trying realize maybe they have legitimate reasons for whatever they're doing that negatively impacts me. Understanding that they're fallible and human and that I'm not perfect, and maybe I should try to see it from their side.

THAT, I can do. And I do. Who says I don't?

The scripture does not indicate this person is not going to be my enemy anymore.

  --------------------------------------


"Turn the other cheek." That one has several possible meanings, according which religious authority you accept, actually. Ancient metaphors are easily misunderstood. Especially in translation from dead languages. Blessed are the cheese makers.

You ones all see things black and white. It's all so simple. Must be nice
That's a rather harsh judgement, sir. I have the Hebrew Greek study bible and get HEAVY into the orignial words to see if I can figure out the cultural mindset of the writer at the time. Yes, GOOD and EVIL are 100% black and white to me. That is irrelevant to proper interpretation of Scripture and does not interfere with my analytical mental faculties. For example, most "Christians" believe that the Commandment to "Honor thy father and thy mother" means you must obey their every wish. Obedience has NOTHING to do with that. As Jesus made rather clear, it's about taking economic and physical care of your parents in their old age. You and I know that children were (and in some places still are) the social security and retirement pension for humans back then. Jesus was accutely aware of how hypocrites mistreated their aged parents while claiming to be men of God. He called them out on it and many other examples of Mammon worshipping evil behavior.

But, people who find it uncomfortable to get past 1st grade Sunday school (i.e. most American "Christians") cannot be bothered with such realities. Providing sustenance for aged parents is TOTALLY different from observing obedience to their wishes. The "Honor" in that Commandment is where the word "Honorarium" came from that the lawyers came up with to fleece their clients. 

As to your other points, I basically agree. The point of contention you and I have has to do with the source of our decision making mental and spiritual software, not what good Christian behavior is.

My Christianity has been tainted by lots of subversive influences.  Tantra. Taoism. Astrology. Past Lives. Karma. Dharma. LSD. Peyote. Mushrooms. Meditation.

All kinds of unsubstantiated hocus pocus. I'm a spiritual sponge. I soak it all up and when I dry out there is a little bit of all of it still inside me. It is as it is supposed to be. That's my faith.

I have no hope of influencing you in any positive way, or of convincing you that my belief system has any merit, or that anything in the world of spirituality is correct besides your limited personal interpretation of Jesus's message as perceived by a nosebleed Type One.

But I won't willingly stand by and listen to you badmouth me. You aren't qualified to do that, and I won't allow it.

You don't hold the moral high ground here that you erroneously assume that you do. You have your own work to do, and it's late in the game for you. You should worry less about my **** and more about your own ****.


This is the only comment I'll make on this thread, because it is prima facie absurd. Reminds me of the old rock tune with the lyric, 
"My girl is red hot, your girl ain't doodle squat..." except substitute "God" for "girl." A POV underpinning every pointless squabble on the face of the earth.

This resonated for me:

Quote
I'm a spiritual sponge. I soak it all up and when I dry out there is a little bit of all of it still inside me. It is as it is supposed to be. That's my faith.

Our faith tempered by experience makes us who we are. Seems self-evident to me.

Not sure I get your POV either. I didn't mean it the way you took it, that's for sure. If I had to rephrase what I meant, it would be :

"I have my own belief system. It's  a hodge-podge made up of many influences. But it's mine, it's legitimate, and I won't listen to some really ignorant and judgmental jerk try to take it apart.

Better?

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but Surly's point is 100% valid in regard to this subject. I think what Surly is trying to say is as follows:

When discussing the term, "Christianity", different people get a totally different picture in their heads. For example, a fighter pilot gets a picture of a fighter plane when he hears the word, "F16".



But, a photographer gets a totally different picture in his head when he hears the word, "F16".




All that said, you and I pretty much understand each other. I think that Works without Faith are as empty as Faith without Works. You think that's for the guilt ridden. 

I don't understand your hangup with guilt. For the life of me, I don't feel any particular guilt for having a fallen nature. I was born with it. You and Yogananda, however, eschew all that "fallen nature" business. Sir, that is so basically UNChristian it boggles the mind that anyone could reject the Biblical teachings about human fallen nature, the ONLY reason Christ had to die for us, and claim to be Christian.

Nevertheless, I understand that your "F16" is rather different from my F16. When we die, that issue will be cleared up permanently.

The Book of James makes it rather clear that the cornerstone of Christianity is Faith, even before the admonition that good works MUST accompany Christian Faith. Good works come forth only if the person actually lives their Faith.

Good Works without Christian Faith are laudable, but they are not in any way related to Chritianity. Verse 18 is often taken out of context to make the case that the bottom Christian line is WORKS, as many New Age folks claim. Capter 2: Verse 22 begins to clear that up. Then, verse 24 makes it crystal clear that Faith (see: "only") is a sine qua non Christian precondition to  Good Chrisitian Works.

The following is sine qua non to being a Christian (Agelbert's F16 WITHOUT QUOTES ):

Quote
James 2:14-26 New King James Version (NKJV)

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


To Agent Graves:
Thank you for changing your icon.  :emthup:  :icon_sunny: Now I feel free to read your posts.
I am certain you view my stuffed shirt prude outlook as a weakness. You are right. I do what I can. Welcome to the Doomstead Diner. Here you will have a front row seat on the collapse of industrial civilization. Most of us here feel it is baked in (pun intended  ;)).

RE,
You know that I hunger and thirst for justice as much as anybody else. I have skills that make me a very, very potentially dangerous person. As to being as evil as you can possibly be, I probably take the prize here for past thoughts that, thankfully, I never had the opportunity to carry out. Jesus said that if you THINK approvingly and willfully of doing something (e.g. adultery) you have already committed that sin.

Well, sin covers a lot of behavioral ground. As an Intelligence Operations Specialist, while in training at Lowry AFB, Colorado in 1967, I prepared a bombing run as an exercise to destroy two major airfields in Hanoi, Noth Vietnam. I went to Bombing Encyclopedia (a LARGE document prepared by the USAF with the radar signature of EVERY CITY in the world - including US cities ) and looked up the included nuclear weapon yield. After doing some math, I realized that two nukes with smaller yelds would do more damage than one big one. Besides, B52s could carry the slightly smaller ones easier. If that mission had taken place, I would have shared the responsibility for killing over one million people plus animals and foliage, followed by horrendous misery and death for hundreds of thousands others within a year or so. Yeah, it was just an exercise. BUT, I can tell you right now I would have carried it out without batting a BRAINWASHED eyelid.   

Paul ain't got nuttin' on me. I am the CHIEF among sinners. So, I have a LOT to be grateful for by Jesus Christ coming into my life. I know how to fly the big jets too. I am confident that I will never use my dastardly skills to kill. But you never know. Being a Christian is a daily struggle, not for the feint of heart. I am NOT a nice guy. My good works behavior and willingness to forego revenge for the evil visited on me an many fellow humans for Christ is the result of God's grace, PERIOD.
Leges         Sine    Moribus     Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

AGelbert

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I had trouble with the sunday school conception of Christianity since i started asking these questions and being reprimanded for it in the 1st grade.

1. Jimmy Swaggart goes to heaven and Ghandi goes to hell.

2.Being born into abuse/starvation or being born to billionaires is as random as advantageous mutation in the theory of evolution.

3. No explanation of where human souls went prior to Jesus life.

4. No explanation of where souls go after 33AD but before hearing the gospel that they are sinners and the white people killing their fellow natives and taking their land are actually good and doing them a favour by replacing their evil religions.

5.No explanation of why Jesus did not expressly forbid war and conquest in his name if he is an all knowing God and knew this would happen.

6. No explanation of where the seperate God resides, now that we have orbited and photgraphed the earth from space, so scriptural 'on the clouds' is unstisfactory.

7. No explanation of Jesus absence age 12 to 30.

8. No explanation of why 3 men from the east who would hold wrong beliefs were present at the first Christmas instead of at least reps from Gods chosen people.

9. No explanation of why the 3 men from the east were "wise", if they represent the sort of wrong teaching the Beatles travelled to India for.

10. Jesus said he would return soon, 2000 years ago.

These need to be answered from the words of Jesus or direct scripture, not post hoc theology.

As to that point about the Puritan belief permeating America as a Christian country, I hope a uniform of authoritah is better than bathing suits on a boat.

Nice post. All kids with a brain ask those questions when they grow up in a fundamentalist authoritarian religious church. They generally go unanswered, and that's one reason why thinking people tend to drift away as they get out from under the thumb of their parents and church elders.

There are answers to questions like that.

For one thing, the Christianity practiced in churches, by and large, is a very twisted and perverted version of the real thing. At least somebody like Palloy, who seems to have avoided real Bible study (to his benefit), can grasp Jesus' basic message. The more clap trap that gets added to the mix, the more difficult that gets.
1. Love God
2. Love your neighbor as yourself
The rest is commentary.

Seen any mustard trees?

The "mustard seed" is the Gospel of Jesus.  Mustard plants normally are knee-high weeds.  For it to grow as large as a tree requires a miracle.  That's because it has become a mutant.  But the point of that is to protect it from dying out.  In the final harvest, the wheat (those who truly follow Jesus, see #1 and #2 above) will be separated from the chaff (those who just took the form of Christianity).


Leges         Sine    Moribus     Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

AGelbert

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Golden Oxen, if you actually believed that hell existed, you would not repeat your TOO OFTEN repeated braggadocio about how rich you are and how all of us "saints" will get our "reward in heaven" while you "end up in Hell".


Yeah, that's true. BUT, YOU DON'T BELIEVE A WORD OF IT!

Golden Oxen does not like to have his life style questioned (see below):


Your correct Agelbert, I don't believe there is a hell for people who do not want to spend their life and their families being poor.

Nor a heaven for those who became poor through drugs and boozing and partying.

                                                                        Nice talking to you Anthony,  GO   
                       


How cleverly reductionist of you. Cut the bullshit, GO. You don't have ANY conditions on your NONbelief in the existence of Hell or Heaven. Your vulgar, empathy deficit disordered stereotype demonising of the poor is typical of your rather limited empathy for disadvantaged people, none of which have abandoned their family or partied, but have been subjected to social injustices you deliberately pretend are not there. Your clever positioning of your greed based life style as "worthy" of Heaven because you are "just taking care of your family", not worshipping your STUFF while you rationalize that those who have it "deserve" it and those who don't have it "deserve" not to have it.

THIS is your Hell deserving religion, Mr. Golden Oxen:

Quote
"Capitalist ideology claims that the world is perfectly ordered and everybody is in their place (i.e. everybody gets what they deserve). This self legitmating aspect of Capitalism is Socially Catastrophic. This is the Victorian view of the world." Rob Urie - Author " Zen Economics"

Sir, you don't believe there is a hell, PERIOD. If you did, you would not routinely work so hard to earn a place there. Have a nice day.
Leges         Sine    Moribus     Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

AGelbert

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Yep.  :(

The racist bastards never stop doing what they do. As they get more confident of their power, they become more in-our-faces about brazenly doing what those evil bastards have ALWAYS done since ancient times, when they could get away with it.


Quote
There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.

There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.

There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.

Proverbs 30:12-14

Leges         Sine    Moribus     Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

 

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